Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 40 total)
  • Agency staff in the public sector…
  • MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    So, MrsMC works for a council who are under staffed and struggling to recruit professionals to her role. Her employer uses agency staff to cover the shortfall. Currently they have 8 agency staff.

    In the course of a conversation with one of the agency staff, it was revealed that the agency worker (who was trained by MrsMC in her previous role at another authority!) mentioned her gross pay as an agency worker, which is 58% more than MrsMC gets as a permanent council employee in the same role.

    Now I know that the agency worker needs to cover sick pay, holidays, and pensions, and that level of pay will put her into the higher tax bracket, but that seems a ridiculous mark up, given that there will be agency fees to pay on top presumably.

    My cousin is a nurse and she has made similar comments about agency nurses pay differentials.

    Does this happen in other public sector roles? And how the hell is the public sector supposed to square the circle of being unable to recruit permanent staff because experienced staff can earn so much more as agency staff doing the same work?

    The world seems to have gone mad.

    allthepies
    Free Member

    You covered it.

    Pension, holiday, sickness benefits don’t come free.

    The agency worker forgoes the above in return for more £££.

    Plus no redundancy payment should the gig go south.

    project
    Free Member

    ask to see the agency staffs pay slip ,and send in a foi request asking about agency pay.

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    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    I appreciate that – and it’s one of the reasons MrsMC hasn’t gone agency.

    But they don’t cost 58% more, surely?

    And public sector redundancy deals are really not that generous for the rank and file any more, especially those who have a career break with kids.

    allthepies
    Free Member

    They’re quite a bit better than £0.

    And agency staff mobility ? I would imagine that they would be required to move around locations as required.

    Big-Dave
    Free Member

    Pension, holiday, sickness benefits don’t come free.

    The agency worker forgoes the above in return for more £££.

    Not strictly true. I’m just about to move back into a public sector job and because of the way the recruitment process is working (or not working) I’m going to have to spend at least a month as an agency worker before being taken on permanently and these days the agencies have to offer sick leave, holiday entitlement and a pension.

    edlong
    Free Member

    Pension costs alone won’t be far off 20% depending on which local authority. Complete lack of security let alone redundancy entitlements and holiday pay shouldn’t be undervalued. That gap doesn’t shock.

    cranberry
    Free Member

    especially those who have a career break with kids

    Was any part of that career break paid ? Would it be for an agency worker ?

    howsyourdad1
    Free Member

    Yeah I was a contract transport planner / CAD guy for 6 years in laaaaaaaaandan. Made lots of cash when young free and single . Downside was job security and lack of benefits .

    topper
    Full Member

    Well I work in the public sector for a triumvirate of West London Boroughs and my section has a number of agency staff. In my department we currently use the services of one such person. We’ve tried a number of recruitment drives but we can’t find the calibre of people who want to take the role at the money being offered. Mind you, I’ve struggled to find anyone with the skills that were looking for whether agency or otherwise.

    How do we square the circle? We start investing in trainees.

    bearnecessities
    Full Member

    58%

    Selling themselves short. When discussed, I’ve always said that to leave my role and go contracting/agency whoring, would need to be double my salary, at least, to even think about it, and even then I’d probably bottle it. So much are the benefits.

    I still stick by that, so good luck with those with the balls to take that leap.

    A good contractor is worth the salary of many useless staff any day of the week.

    geoffj
    Full Member

    As a contractor working in the public sector, allthepies hits the nail on the head.
    Part of my role has been trying to recruit permanent staff for IT roles. Unfortunately for my current employer, but fortunately for me and my contracting colleagues, the quality of individuals prepared to take permanent roles often falls short of the aspirations of the employer.
    Supply and demand innit – good people are not easy to come by.

    matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    Supply. Demand.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    So you are all happy for your taxes to be paying this agency staff premium then? 😉

    Obviously, to leave the positions unfilled would potentially result in quite a few unpleasant deaths and headlines, I just really don’t see how the problem can be resolved.

    bearnecessities
    Full Member

    So you are all happy for your taxes to be paying this agency staff premium then?

    If they deliver, yes.

    bigjim
    Full Member

    conversely I apparently earn what the role would pay if it was permanent, though I’ve not done the maths if anything I think it’s probably a bit less, plus no proper sick pay, pension, notice period, etc

    these days the agencies have to offer sick leave, holiday entitlement and a pension.

    don’t think that’s quite true, certainly I only get statutory sick pay at £88 a week (!), plus you only start accruing holiday allowance after 12 weeks on the job. Can get the boot tomorrow too.

    allthepies
    Free Member

    Turning it around then. Why doesn’t Mrs MCTD go agency ?

    Ideological reasons ?

    Drac
    Full Member

    Yup covered above plus they could go quite some time without any work, that 58% extra has to do along way.

    edlong
    Free Member

    So you are all happy for your taxes to be paying this agency staff premium then?

    Less the savings on pensions, holiday, potentially redundancy, happy might be a bit strong, but agency staff have a place in many organisations. Over reliance on agency staff in many local authorities is a problem, but not primarily a financial one.

    dragon
    Free Member

    As above supply and demand. It happens a lot in the private sector also, where key business roles are being held by contractors, who can walk at a moments notice. But if there all you can get and you need the job done what can you do?

    ratherbeintobago
    Full Member

    This is how it works in the NHS:

    aP
    Free Member

    The on-costs of employing someone are not far different to the contractor mark up that you’ve mentioned.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    Ratherbeintobago – I’ll show that to MrsMC and she can come up with the child protection version!

    Anyone know what the agency gets paid on top of that the staff costs?

    Frankenstein
    Free Member

    Same as cover teachers.

    They get more pay but have to cover more things like pension.

    At least they don’t take work home with them!

    andyrm
    Free Member

    So you are all happy for your taxes to be paying this agency staff premium then?

    Yes – I’d rather pay a roughly equivalent net cost (as has been said, once all benefits, costs etc are covered its pretty similar) and organisations have the freedom to drop the axe on poor performers quickly.

    fisherboy
    Free Member

    Im a local authority employee and on recent budget calculation we worked on employed staff backpack costs of 40-45% of salary. Ie the cost of providing benefits, employer NI contribution, HR costs on top of normal salaries.

    poly
    Free Member

    Anyone know what the agency gets paid on top of that the staff costs?

    Probably something comparable to the 13.8% Employers NI cost (or less).

    wingnuts
    Full Member

    Just to take a slightly different angle… there is considerable (anecdotal) evidence that many agency workers choose that form of employment to manage stress. Social workers in particular find the stress associated with their vulnerability of not being able to find resources and resolutions to the problems their case loads present move on to feel safe after a period in one authority. Its expensive and means that the most vulnerable in society often get inconsistent support. I’m sure this is replicated in other areas.

    ghostlymachine
    Free Member

    The on-costs of employing someone are not far different to the contractor mark up that you’ve mentioned.

    This ^^^^^^^^

    My salary is about 60-65% of my total cost to the business.
    A contractor costs the company about 90% of my total cost.
    But they can be sacked with 1 weeks notice. Or hired in again within a hadful of days. (usually takes a couple of weeks here)

    A specialist contractor might cost 110%, but we’ll only need them for a few months. Then we can get rid. Or make an offer, with perks.

    That’s where the big money is. Moving from a specialist contractor to permanent.

    fanatic278
    Free Member

    58% seems cheap. Of course it entirely depends on which side of the fence you sit.

    I spent 15 years as a normal staff employee, fully aware that agency/contractors were earning 100% more than me. But I was happy with my career, training and career progression.

    Two years ago I saw my career progression plateau and decided to make the jump. And life on this side of the fence is certainly not as comfortable. Job security is the biggest thing you lose, and it takes a hell of a lot of mark-up to help you forget about that. I’d jump back to my old role for half the salary in a heart beat

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    Interesting from fanatic. Think she may be considering jumping to agency, partly to manage stress per wingnut’s post. A lot of the agency people work 6 months on, 3-6 months off to get a break. Suspect that due to her disability, the extra benefits of staying g permanent may outweigh the cash.

    FuzzyWuzzy
    Full Member

    I’m private sector and we have contractors on 350% more than permanent staff doing an identical role. Personally I’d switch to contracting for that sort of increase but job security and other benefits would be worth more than 58% to me.

    dirtdiggler
    Free Member

    In my experience its very hard and getting harder to recruit into the public sector because the pay gap is increasing year on year. The public sector simply cant compete due to having had almost no pay rises in many a year.

    The 58% covers everything thats already been mentioned above but also the differential in what someone in the private sector would command.

    Job security (getting less so) comes at a price.

    br
    Free Member

    I’ve worked in the NHS.

    Probably the worst employer in my 35 years of working, and among the worst HR processes I’ve seen – doesn’t really work for either the employer or employee.

    And while all the talk is about agency costs, I’d be interested to see that ACTUAL employment cost of permanent staff – it really wouldn’t surprise me at all if it was at least as much again as their salary, if not more.

    br
    Free Member

    In my experience its very hard and getting harder to recruit into the public sector because the pay gap is increasing year on year. The public sector simply cant compete due to having had almost no pay rises in many a year.

    For rank&file staff where I live the public sector pay better than the private sector, and for skilled/Managerial it’s not far behind especially taking into account pensions and working hours. But, on the whole people who’ve worked in the private sector just don’t want to work in the public sector unless they have to.

    nickc
    Full Member

    So you are all happy for your taxes to be paying this agency staff premium then?

    The answer is to retain current staff and put in the appropriate training policies and procedures to ensure a continuous flow of new recruits. Sadly a awful lot of public services haven’t got the manpower/money/foresight/leadership to make that happen in any meaningful way.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    A lot of the agency people work 6 months on, 3-6 months off to get a break.

    I know a number who do exactly this.

    I had a friend who switched from permanent to agency/contract with the nhs, they then changed the rules to say you couldn’t do the same job as agency for more than 3 years. He’s now permanent again outside the nhs. There are pros and cons both ways. Its my view there is little job security anywhere these days, especially in the private sector so the contracter option looks attractive but it has its drawbacks – harder to get a mortgage etc.

    As an aside when hiring people I’ve always used salary plus 50% as a benchmark for total cost – pension, benefits, employers NI etc

    Sundayjumper
    Full Member

    In my old job, projects were costed on the basis that “burden” (holiday, pension, blah) on top of base salary was 51%. That was private sector, and reviewed annually based on actual costs for the year. Anywhere around 50% is completely realistic. Public sector I’m sure would be higher due to more generous holiday & pension arrangements.

    I was made redundant from that job just over a year ago. I had over ten years’ service with the company. I got a month’s notice and statutory redundancy pay, i.e. the absolute minimum they could legally get away with. So much for job security eh ?

    I’m now a contractor working for the public sector 🙂 My hourly rate is 80% more than I was paid as an employee however it is 15% less than another public sector client was paying my previous employer for my time. So overall, the public sector is better off engaging me through this route.

    And FWIW, I almost interviewed for a perm Civil Service role but what they expected in terms of qualifications & experience was absolute moon/stick territory compared to the salary. They will always have a recruitment problem if they can’t/won’t pay market rates.

    pictonroad
    Full Member

    We (Environment Agency) pay a national rate, this is fine outside of the South East but we really really struggle in that area. We have a lot of Agency Staff in the Project Management teams.

    It’s something you have to want to do for reasons other than money I think.

    richardkennerley
    Full Member

    There’s a cap to be introduced in the NHS (at least in pathology) which will prevent agency staff earning much more than an NHS employee. The agency staff we’ve had recently are looking for permanent employment now.

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