It's still around, although thankfully not at the worst predicted levels. Seeing a 20 odd year old lady with sats of 70 on 100% O2 two days after giving birth makes me less dismissive of the danger…

how mant children are at risk or are indeed contracting measle as a result of parents listening to scarmongers due to some idiot scientist or doctor linking it to Autism.

I'd listen to all the pros and cons but also- if a Doctor or Scientist disagrees with something then I'll also listen to what they have to say.

Seeing a 20 odd year old lady with sats of 70 on 100% O2 two days after giving birth makes me less dismissive of the danger.

There is a danger and very much people like her but it's far from the danger that they predicted and the press jumped on.

There is a danger and very much people like her but it's far from the danger that they predicted and the press jumped on.

Yup, I agree.

We've got tons of very expensive stuff sitting around doing nothing, and I wonder what will happen to it; I know we've got enough critical care stuff to double our capacity, which represents an awful lot of money tied up in equipment.

i think that, although swine flu does exist, it's fed into the media and blown up into a massive frenzy in order to 1) sell newspapers and 2) boost the profits of the vaccine manufacturers by having the population shitting themselves about it.

also, have the vaccines been properly tested?

we need a good population decimator. far too many of us here as it is. flus are natures way of keeping our population levels in check.

hora – Member I'd listen to all the pros and cons but also- if a Doctor or Scientist disagrees with something then I'll also listen to what they have to say.

So would I, but doesn't mean to say their opinion would be correct, like the chap who linked MMR to Autism, found to be incorrect and irresponsible.

i think that, although swine flu does exist, it's fed into the media and blown up into a massive frenzy in order to 1) sell newspapers and 2) boost the profits of the vaccine manufacturers by having the population shitting themselves about it.

Easy to adopt that position after the fact.

It could have been a complete disaster, and the planning that went into dealing with it reflected that. Imagine if it proved just a little more virulent, just a little more widespread….

Schools would have shut because parents wouldn't send their kids out. Anyone who knew anyone who was pregnant wouldn't have gone out because the risk of infecting others would have been too great. Hospital staff would have ended up running a skeleton service because a large number would have been off either with the flu or looking after those relatives or children who had it.

Essentially, we were very lucky THIS TIME.

I've said it before, but it's worth repeating; I'm an experienced adult ITU nurse, but when people start making plans that involve me looking after paediatric ITU patients, or plans that involve me supervising other non-ITU nurses while they look after ITU patients, I start to get scared.

Add in too, that swine flu patients in ITU are difficult and complicated to look after, and that ITU capacity in the past few months has been at full stretch….

It's easy to sit back and say it was a lot of fuss over nothing, but it's not a sensible position to take…

Hmm! Interesting, when I seen the plans put in place for us I thought. Well here we go again over kill for something that may not happen. The threat was there yes and they had to make planes but did I think because these plans where made it would happen. No, my experience told me they were just that plans.

It's hard know really though –

either it was:
a)Massive overkill, hyped up panic, what a waste of time vaccinating everyone.
or:
b)Just in time vaccine program stopped a very bad illness hitting the most vulnerable people and causing significant badness.

You can't really tell which one it was, given that we did vaccinate lots of the most vulnerable people.

Joe

Hype or not. Whether I am one of a few thousand minor breakout or part of a multi million epidemic. I have had it and you really wouldn't want it! Never had 'proper' flu before but it's really nasty. If the vaccine has even prevented one person getting it, then good job I say.

It's a risk assessment. The probability of it happening might be low, but the consequences of it happening are so bad that you have to take it seriously.

alpin – that over population crap is spouted every time something like this comes up. Unless you're prepared to do yourself in, sterilise yourself or refuse medical treatment for you and your family for the good of mankind, it's just hypocritical b*llocks. What you really mean is it's ok for everyone else to die, but not me or mine.

So after reading through 2 pages I havent seen any reason here not to have it done, unless Im missing something – why wouldnt anyone have it…? What exactly is it anyones afraid of..??

What exactly is it anyones afraid of..??

The monsters in the cupboard – since certain "doctors" have succeeded in breeding a mistrust of vaccinations.

…actually I'm being a bit unfair, given I was dubious when we got the letter through, though a little research didn't come up with the horror stories about kids having the vaccine that I'd expected.

So after reading through 2 pages I havent seen any reason here not to have it done

If its bike-related I'd agree with the above. Something like this needs cross-referencing and questions to your GP etc etc.

woody2000 – Member

alpin – that over population crap is spouted every time something like this comes up. Unless you're prepared to do yourself in, sterilise yourself or refuse medical treatment for you and your family for the good of mankind, it's just hypocritical b*llocks. What you really mean is it's ok for everyone else to die, but not me or mine.

never had the vaccine. don't have any kids. i'm sure if i did have kids i still wouldn't have had it done. my best mates little 'un didn't have it and is still alive and kicking. i know of nobody who either died from or contracted pig flu.

Not sure what any of that has got to do with your assertion that "we need a good population decimator", alpin.

I had my 9 month old vaccinated after a bit of thought. The main one being that despite a lot of people saying "it's only flu", you don't have to look that far back to see the damage that previous flu outbreaks have caused. Hong Kong flu back in the late 60's killed around a million, and Spanish Flu back in the 20's killed over 50 million. Now it turns out that swine flu isn't as virriluent, but we didn't know that when he was vaccinated and it seemed common sense to cover him. I spoke to a doctor friend of mine, and also to my sister in law who's a pharmacist, and both said the risk of complications were low. Although this is a new vaccine, the constitution of it is the same as the standard flu vaccine that has been given for years, the only difference being the dead flu part of it is tailored to what flu is prevelant that year.

I like to think medicine has moved on since the 1920s never mind the 60s.

I like to think medicine has moved on since the 1920s never mind the 60s.

Indeed – they didn't have a flu vaccine back then.

I like to think medicine has moved on since the 1920s never mind the 60s.

Yeah, the vaccine. Which is why I gave it to him. 🙄

my best mates little 'un didn't have it and is still alive and kicking

Without a doubt the best reserched reason for not vaccinating one's kids I have seen on STW.

my best mates little 'un didn't have it and is still alive and kicking. i know of nobody who either died from or contracted pig flu.

You know I can't make up my mind if this is a troll or just plain old stupidity. I don't know of anyone who has died from any of these vaccine preventable diseases. It doesn't mean that no one dies from them.

that and bunnyhop's closed thread….. 😀

Well my son (9) and my partner (35) both have had the vaccine, along with the partners sister who is a nurse, other than the sister who felt rough after having the vaccine and took a day off work, all have been ok since. I believe there are two different types of vaccine I know my partners sister had a different one to mrs flippinheckler and our son. Which is best I couldnt tell you.

I don't know why but I read that as Spanish Fly killed millions. 😕

Darn that stuff must be strong 8)

Yeah, the vaccine. Which is why I gave it to him.

Ah right so everything else we have was available then and also free too. I stand corrected then.

But as you've mentioned the Spanish flu you'll find that it was more fatal to young adults then it was to young kids.

I don't want to join in on the "should I, shouldn't I?" debate. However, it's worth letting you know that my whole family (wife, me, 3 yo and 1 yo) were vaccinated before Christmas. My oldest is immuno-compromised so we were following protocol and advice given by his consultant.

Anyway, other than a slightly achy arm not one of us had any side-effects. In fact the kiddies seemed totally un-phased

Ah right so everything else we have was available then and also free too. I stand corrected then.

Well the only other obvious thing which makes any difference to flu now compared to then appears to be tamiflu – AFAIK that only helps reduce the length of time you're ill for, has various nasty side effects, and doesn't do that good a job of keeping alive those people who'd otherwise die. Do you really think that if nobody takes the vaccine, other advances in medicine are sufficient to prevent the sort of pandemics which raged in the '20s and '60s?

Do you really think that if nobody takes the vaccine, other advances in medicine are sufficient to prevent the sort of pandemics which raged in the '20s and '60s?

Tamiflu makes no difference to it just reduces the symptoms a little. Penicillin will help those who go on to develop chest infections, it wasn't was easily available in 20s that's for sure. Intensive care and HDU have come on along way since the 60s too best off it's free in this country now. While it may well still spread without the vaccine it the symptoms that it produces can be treat a lot better too. The other big reason why the on in 20s had such a huge effect was the world was still coming out of the effects of WWI.

Health care has really come on in the last few decades which is huge contributing factor as to why we can survive Flu cases better than we did 50+ years ago.

Aracer – there is an awful lot of medicine that is available now that wasn't in the 20s. Huge amounts. Not in the preventing of infection with flu but in treating the complications from which people die

Why not? Its the "first do no harm" basis for deciding on a course of action.

How many vaccines can be purchased and administered for a single days HDU care?

Having had to visit my mother in an intensive care and high dependency units (not something I'd care to repeat or wish to inflict on anyone else) the treatments offered certainly did not come under the banner of "first do no harm". It appeared to me that it was more like do quite a bit of harm but at least it will give the patient a fighting chance and is significantly better than the alternative.

All very well treating the complications from which people die, but correct me if I'm wrong, despite these treatments people (some of whom were healthy) are dying. Now I'm certainly not one to go around scare mongering – yes it's currently not spreading anything like predicted, and as I've kind of mentioned before, I'm a bit of a cynic myself. However my question was about preventing the pandemic – treating complications wouldn't do anything to prevent that, and if it did happen with millions of people getting ill, not only would significant numbers die, but there would be all sorts of other problems caused by people not making it to work (see all the whingeing about schools being closed due to snow – what if schools were closed for weeks at a time?) It seems at least plausible to me that the current vaccination programme will help prevent such a pandemic – though the cynics will always be able to point out there's no proof that it did.

You keep mentioning "first do no harm", TJ – please explain to me exactly what harm having the vaccination does (slight pain in the arm and slight fever for <24 hours doesn't count). After all I haven't even heard of a single person who's had worse reaction than that 😉

Errm "first do no harm" is a a basic principle behind medicine – or should be but sometimes gets forgotton.

– a sore arm and fever symptoms for 24 hrs? That counts as harm in my book. There cannot be complete knowledge of the potential for harm from the vaccine.

The point is you have to be sure that in the particular situation you are in that any action you take reduces the harm to that person. If the odds of getting a particular disease are very low and then is the benefit from the vaccine worth the risk from the vaccination? Both are very low probability events bar the minor common side effects of the vaccination.

thus my view is that if you are in an at risk category then it makes total sense to have it. If you are not the case for having the vaccination is much less clear cut.

Personally I am not in a high risk group and I react badly to vaccinations so I have not had it and won't. Thats my personal position. Other people will have differing priorities and thus may arrive at a different decision.

All very well treating the complications from which people die, but correct me if I'm wrong, despite these treatments people (some of whom were healthy) are dying.

Yes but not 50 million.

If the odds of getting a particular disease are very low and then is the benefit from the vaccine worth the risk from the vaccination?

Vaccines aren't there simply to protect the individual, they also protect the rest of society. Sorry but a sore arm for a reduction for eliminating the risk of death is a real bonus as far as I can tell.

thus my view is that if you are in an at risk category then it makes total sense to have it. If you are not the case for having the vaccination is much less clear cut.

Well it's interesting that Drac appears to have removed the data that he posted that showed that the flu hospitalised more people with no underlying than those with underlying condition.

Gonefishin – but the amount of people being flu vaccinated is not enough to get herd immunity. Thus there is no public health benefit.

Of course flu hospitalised more people with no underlying condition – there are more of them!

Its about risk benefit analysis and it simply is not as straightforward as you think.

I just got an email from someone in the bike trade asking the same thing!

They even copied Jeff Steber from Intense in on the question.

BOGGLE

Well it's interesting that Drac appears to have removed the data that he posted that showed that the flu hospitalised more people with no underlying than those with underlying condition

Nothing interesting about I posted the wrong link so removed it, the one I posted is on the BBC site.

Read into that what you will.

In fact here it is.

– a sore arm and fever symptoms for 24 hrs? That counts as harm in my book. There cannot be complete knowledge of the potential for harm from the vaccine.

As there cannot be for any vaccine that hasn't been used for under 80 years. The point is, that the swine flu vaccine has been tested and released to the public under the same stringent testing regime that all vaccines and pharmacuticals have been. Are there cock ups? Of course. As a health proffesional you know that more than I do, and we all are aware of the thalidomide screw up (screw up seems a massive understatement, but I can't think of a better way to put it).

However, as you keep saying "first, do no harm" I had to ask myself: Will the potential listed side effects be worse than Sam contracting the virus? At the time, it wasn't known how bad or otherwise the virus would be. There had been a rapid spread of the virus, and deaths were higher than seasonal flu. I thought about it, weighed up the potential benefits and pitfalls and decided to give him the vaccine. He didn't seem to suffer from the jab and everything went ok. If he hadn't had the jab and they offered it to me again tomorrow, I might think about it a bit more, but I think I'd still give it to him.