looking for a little advice, i’ll try to state facts, and i’m quite happy to be told the following is standard practice and i’m an over cautious dad.

last week my 10 year old, and most of his year, went on a weeks camping holiday at an outdoor activity centre.

the weather in cornwall, from tuesday was windy, wet and cold. thursday was the day they were scheduled to go canoeing/kayaking. all week there was a warning of severe gales, on thurs morning the met office had a yellow alert in place, gusts up to 60mph with heavy rain in the afternoon/evening.

in the morning i called the school. i was worried that they would go on the water, bearing in mind the actual weather, the forecast and the fact a warning was in place, and wanted to know if the school had been in contact with the centre to discuss the safety aspects that day. we are not just talking a breezy day, it was a severe gale that brought down trees and all local surf schools had cancelled, the life saving club had cancelled training sessions that night etc. thats pretty unheard of, surf schools especially as they teach in anything.

anyhow, the school had not called the centre, had not even thought to and had no clue a weather warning was in place. i told the school that i personally would not allow my son on the water in those conditions.. for what its worth i’ve sailed, windsurfed and surfed for nearly 40 years, am a trained beach lifeguard and a qualified paddleboard coach.

the school said they would check it out, but needless to say i did not hear another thing until early evening when i got a mass school txt saying that the childeren were enjoying their activities.

son came home yesterday. he had been taken out in a river, apparently so windy the instructors could’nt paddle accross (this may or may not be exageration) and he had been put in a kayak with a spray deck (it was ok according to him, the instructor was close).

needless to say i am utterly amazed that any activity centre would operate watersports in such high winds, let alone with 10 year olds (my paddleboard instructor ticket is valid up to only 10mph) and in water sub 10deg with windchill around 8-9deg (think air temp that day was about 10). also surprised a 10 year old would be put into a boat with a deck and given no instruction how to get out before being let loose.

so my question to the stw collective, is that all a bit wrong or is it me being over cautious?

he had been put in a kayak with a spray deck

😯

I’m hoping he’d done plenty of kayaking.

Anyway, I’m guessing you’ll get the usual variance of responses from “not cautious enough” to “DTFU” 🙂

Sounds like your more qualified than most on here to make that judgement. Have you discussed your concerns direct with the centre?

for what its worth i’ve sailed, windsurfed and surfed for nearly 40 years, am a trained beach lifeguard and a qualified paddleboard coach.

you’re probably more qualified than any on here to make a call on safety. FWIW I think that sounds very bad, both from the school and the centre…

I wasn’t there, I haven’t seen the river in question and therefore I don’t feel qualified to comment. 😕

Same thing happened with my daughter. Went away on school trip which was to include kayaking/canoeing. weather was very windy so they took them on an inland stretch of water instead…. not a river though – I think rivers are properly dangerous things at times.
I was happy with that and I’m also a [look at me] very experienced sailor and windsurfer.
Shame the school didn’t seem too bothered when a parent asked a very reasonable question – I’m not convinced that all schools are that ‘caring’.

But surely the school assume the centre is taking all reasonable precautions so don’t want to get involved.

Sounds like luck was with the activity centre, though we don’t know the local conditions of the stretch of water used by the instructors.
10 year olds tend to be small in mass compared to their surface area. I suspect none of them had full technical gear as it’s expensive and they grow out of it. There was a very real risk of hypothermia for some of them (taking your assessment of the conditions at face value, we had a blow and little rain here Thursday for a comparison).

5 years youth leading experience for the Scouts and I would have been wary on Thursday.

(Edit)Another younger child at the school? I wouldn’t be allowing this child to go on the activity if they use the same centre.

(Edit 2) A lot of education establishments regard safety paperwork as the be-all and end-all of their responsibilities and fail to understand that the paper will not protect anyone if no-one applies the documented system and manages it.

Schools don’t usually have experienced or qualified outdoor leaders, that’s why they go to activity centres. If a decision needed to be made to cancel or adapt an activity, I’d expect the activity centre to be doing that as the competent party the school had engaged for the job. Depends how sheltered their river was on the day, but it does sound like they were pushing their luck. Lyme Bay tragedy was 1993, conceivably before the instructors were born.

Anyway – did your kid have a good time?

But surely the school assume the centre is taking all reasonable precautions so don’t want to get involved.

exactly what i was told by the school… at that stage i told them what qualifications i had, and i witheld from mentioning lyme bay. it was on my mind.

my kid had never been in a canoe let alone one with a spraydeck. he can paddle though and has a sit on boat.

thanks to all for the replies, its helped me put a bit more perspective on it. i do feel i should put something in writing to the school/centre expressing my concern, not so much for my kid but for others in the the future.

did your kid have a good time?

he’s 10. super confident on the water (too much so in fact) because he surfs/swims/paddles with me. course he did! 😀

Doesn’t sound like ideal conditions to be taking inexperienced kids out in, but unless you were there its hard to judge.

On the other hand, I remember Lyme bay.

When you say spray deck do you mean white water thick neoprene with 10mm chord and reinforced with rubber so it doesn’t pop or the flimsy nylon ones they give out to keep kids dry?

The former is designed to stay on she running the gnar and a ten year old would not get it on or off. The latter would fall off and you would come out regardless of whether you remembered to pull it so not an issue.

One of my fondest outdoor pursuits memories from school was doing helvellyn in winter.must have been 13. Whiteout on top. Awesome adventure.

Why didn’t you call the activity centre? Especially as you hadn’t heard back from the school? Being as your son was at an outdoor activity centre, you were clearly more than aware he would be, it is safe to assume as he was actually there and not sat at home on an x box et.al. be participating in some adventurous, indeed ‘risky’ activity while he was there.
I have no idea about watersports and the centre’s decision to carry on with the activity in the conditions you describe may very well have been at best, foolhardy but ultimately the proof is in the pudding.
Is your son OK? Did he feel overly anxious before during or after the activity more than he would have in more placid conditions (bearing in mind he was participating in adventue holiday ‘cos that’s what this was)? Did he enjoy himself?
Sorry. I’m not having a go but (admittedly being ignorant of the conditions and possible dangers), it does have a whiff of adventure without risk which is pretty pointless, isn’t it?
Sorry. Just my take on it.

It’s natural for you to be concerned, but difficult to say if there is any real problem from the information given. A bad forecast for a given area, in itself, should not preclude a centre from running activities. The decision should be made on the day to take into account the group, the staff available, the equipment, the potential venues etc before the group go out. It is absolutely possible to run high quality adventurous activities in severe weather if the right decisions are made. Sheltered venues, reduced time exposed to the elements, higher staffing, adequate escape/fall back planning etc will all come into account. If you have specific concerns about the sessions that were run, beyond the general forecast for the area, then have a chat with the senior staff of the centre involved. If they are worth their salt this sort of conversation should be welcomed.

Cheers
( Background-Ex Deputy Head of Centre/Activities manager)

Remove the emotional response. Write a risk assessment for the session as if you were about to go out with a party of 10y olds on the water. The last line should be a reccomdendation on the session continuing or not in light of the current weather situation.

That is then a qualified opinion on the matter.

the met office had a yellow alert in place

all for adventure and was a beaver scout leader for a few years – but conditions like that can’t be suitable for a 10year old – if he had fun that was luck rather than judgement, returning safely was good luck rather than the result of good judgement

my understanding is that the school would have had to ensure that the centre had risk assessments and guidelines in place suitable to the age group and the activity – presumably these would include checking weather forecasts and acceptable temperatures / windspeeds – and levels of competence for using a spraydeck

have a friend who works for a local authority and his job is assessing school trips that involve outdoor activities and ensuring school has done appropriate checks – not sure if all LA’s have such a person but a phone call to the local education office might track down some advisor who acts in this capacity and may have an interest

TomB – Member

….It is absolutely possible to run high quality adventurous activities in severe weather if the right decisions are made. Sheltered venues, reduced time exposed to the elements, higher staffing, adequate escape/fall back planning etc will all come into account

think this was posted whilst i ranted a bit – agree but as a parent i think i would like to be reassured that the centre did look at this way and didn’t just wing it

Your son didn’t come home telling you that he thought he was going to die, or that he was on the verge of sh..ting himself, so it can’t have been that bad. In fact you say he enjoyed it.

At the end of the day, the centre will have been appraised and the instructors will have qualifications and experience. I am sure it was not the first time they have taken kids out in windy weather either, so the spot is likely to have worked for them before. As for the school, they will have taken a similar view and assumed that the centre could make better decisions than them on what was acceptable on the day.

I think you might be overreacting.

apparently so windy the instructors could’nt paddle accross (this may or may not be exageration)

If it was that windy the kids would’ve either been:
A) pinned to the shore and have a shit time
B) blown to the other side or up/down stream and have to be dragged back by the instructors

So it’s likely to be a sizable exaggeration imo

Difficult to say with any certainty, the instructors may have used that particular stretch of water because it provided just enough shelter to be safe enough in the prevailing conditions.

instructor not being able to paddle across the river: er.. well yeah, maybe.. who knows. Needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Spraydeck: Probably one of those nylon ones that come off if you sneeze near them. Seriously if the boat went over, he’d get out, even if he just randomly flailed about, he’d still get out. Hardest thing would be keeping a 10 year old in an upturned boat.

Ultimately it’s your job as a parent to look out for the kids but equally if you’re going to let your kids go off and do adventurous stuff (and I think it’s awesome that you do) then you’ve got to leave it to the instructors on the ground to make the decisions as to what is and isn’t suitable. It might be with the same conditions but a different group they wouldn’t have gone out, so many variables.

thanks guys. more good comments, much appreciated. more perspective gained.

Your son didn’t come home telling you that he thought he was going to die, or that he was on the verge of sh..ting himself, so it can’t have been that bad.

This kind of assumes that the kids is able to risk assess the situation himself.

My daughter (6) has been on many adventures with me, some times she has got scared when was totaly safe, other times she’s having a great time and wants to carry on but my risk assessment of the situation means I have reined it in / turned back / etc.

FWIW I used to be an outdoor instructor in the military and out so have lots of experience with groups of all abilities and in varying conditions. In my experience qualifications are all well and good but its bad decision making / lack of experience in a certain situation to make the right call.
Often instructors feel under pressure to deliver as the poor weather alternative is a bit pants etc.
I have cancelled sessions due to poor forecast to be proven wrong later on when it would have been ok and was criticised for hanging the programme. To me its about making the right decision with the information you have at the time. Putting in the effort to have good exciting alternative activities is worth while but requires imagination and resource fullness.
We must be careful not to take the adventure out of outdoor activities but common sense and judgment must be used regarding the aim of the activity. If its to develop the resillience team work of a group of soldiers then yeh let’s push the limits but a group of kids being introduced to a new sport/ activity I personally would want them enjoy the session not just survive an experience.
However I’m not criticising as the centre may have a very sheltered venue and after all kids do like exaggerate and as I remember when i was a kid scare parents with your stories.
You were right to be concerned and there are plenty examples qualified instructors making very poor judgment calls to justify your concern. However a call to the centre would have put your mind at rest. If you were still not satisfied you could speak to the local Adventure Activities Licensing Authority who assess centres safety standards for working with u16.

I remember going to Lakeside Centre on Windermere when we were at secondary school (think I was about 14 at the time).

Weather varied quite a bit but the day we went Lazer sailing it was horrendous. Blowing a gale, sideways rain. We were just told to wear more waterproofs. 🙂
Tell you what, it taught you about tacking pretty damn quickly!

I used to be a professional boatman (several generations of my family were) and I’ve seen some truly outrageous stuff carried out by schools, activity centres, scouts and parents.
Unfortunately, a lot of these instructors don’t have a huge amount of experience, but a certificate or two makes them feel bulletproof.
My dad is probably the toughest and bravest man I’ve ever met, but when I was learning the ropes as a youngster, one of the first principles he drummed into me was knowing when NOT to go out on the water.
As others have said, depends on the local conditions and the state of the water. Both my kids have been on activity holidays with the school, but I can’t say I’m ever very comfortable with it.
It’s a tricky business this balancing act between adventure and danger.

I am currently the head of paddle sports at a large council outdoor centre. (Not the one in question)

If you have any concerns over the safety of anything your child is, was or is going to be involved in on a trip to an outdoor centre then call them. Ask for an explanation, air your views and try to gain your satisfaction that everything appropriate and proportional is done for the safety of your child.

Your biggest indicator will be if the centre is willing to have that conversation with you. If they won’t they are not doing their job properly and you would be right to ask for your child to be removed from an activity that concerns you.

You may also want to ask to speak with your child’s school EVC (educational visits coordinator) as they should be assured of the quality of the practice of any organisation their school uses.

The key to ensuring you know everything is going to be safe is to make yourself as informed as you need to be.

As far as the details the OP had described, no one here was there so its not really possible to comment.