I run a small company (about 20 people) and we need to employ a keen grad to pick up some IT admin stuff, learn on the job sort of thing. Nothing brilliant but a nice solid job.

Now you'd think with the economy being in dire straits this would be easy but we've been trying for months now and just can't find anybody. I refuse top pay an agent for this role as I think I shouldn't have to.

Where are all these unemployed grads we here about?

avoiding stuff with admin in the title probably

Sadly, I think that many graduates today have overly high expectations of their starting career positions. As cp says above, the word "admin" will put them off straight away, as "I've studied for years, I am a graduate, I do not do Admin! No, I shall be straight in at the top, me!"

😉

where are you based?

Leafy West London

It may be that what you're offering doesn't meet the expectations of a graduate who is looking for 'IT' work.

Why limit yourself to graduates if it's learn on the job?

Do you have an existing person they are learning off of? A lot of IT admin work isn't really that taxing…could you get an apprentice and some government support?

Why limit yourself to grads? Most of the people I work with (as an IT consultant) don't have degrees and their ability to do their job doesn't suffer for it. For junior roles we tend to get trainees (modern apprentice type scheme or whatever it's called these days), the pay is crap but they learn a lot, get a lot of training and they've all been highly motivated (apart from one dud one a few years back).

Have you tried the University careers service of your local Uni(s)? Before I graduated (albeit a few years ago) I landed a job before I had graduated with a small software house, similar size to your company. Could you maybe offer an internship for an IT student for a year with a view to possibly offering them employment a year later once they have graduated?

IT admin is a dull dull job.

the last company i worked at we really struggled to find someone too (central london though). The guy we did find had to be fired as he was completely incompetent.

In the end we just did it ourselves.

I think lots of small companies get an external company to sort it out> its one of those things that 99% of the time, someone without too much knowledge is fine. But when it all goes t1ts up, and you've got 20 people unable to work, you need it fixing ASAP and thats when you need someone with experience.

If you were in Glasgow I would bite your hand off for that.

David.

What you want is working mums, I have employed a few in the past. Many are graduates – often smart cookies and happy to do admin. They need flexible hours but if you give them the time to take kids to school etc. The the hours they work for you are normally more productive than a standard ninetofiver.

What you want is working mums

don't we all? 😉

You see I don't think it's a dull job, I think it's quite a good job. It is admin and it isn't. We're a pretty okay web company with some really nice clients (big brands, not your local taxi firm)

Basically we've got very experienced and expensive .net guys raising tickets and doing bitty support, we just need somebody to come in and take this over so it's not like its desktop suppport. It's supporting existing sites, talking to clients and executing and managing fixes this will develop into project work, which will devlop into owning projects.

We'll even pay 'em, maybe it's time to look beyond grads but the thinking was pay 18-20k to kick off and take it from there.

Some of the best guys I know started with jobs like that at 17/18 (and now directors at microsoft or rich and retired).

Have a look at school leavers, HNDs etc too.

Market forces? is 18 / 20 thousand enough to attract graduates in London? I doubt it and that might be your issue.

You are asking for graduates to do a job with admin in the title for a relatively low salary. Open the net wider to more than just graduates perhaps?

Admittedly I'm not in IT, but I wouldn't have considered a graduate job in London for under 25k (last year when I was looking). Maybe now people aren't being as choosy, and it's got to be worth trying some of the above suggestions.

but it's not 10-20k forever, that's what I really struggle with. Being small we promote and reward faster if you prove yourself.

Being small we promote and reward faster if you prove yourself.

Formalise it then. Stick "raising to 30k when personal development targets are achieved" (or something) on the ad.

Formalise it then. Stick "raising to 30k when personal development targets are achieved" (or something) on the ad.

+1

You have to look at it from the point of view of the employee – do they know that the salery will rise? 5th's suggestion is good.

Have a careful look at how you word the Ad – it might be putting people off. for example I will not apply for jobs if no salary is quoted.

You will not get many people to work in London on 20k – those that can afford it will tend to be the rich kids with private education, parent's house in London and a degree from a top uni – they will be going for jobs with IBs and FTSE 100 firms.

A mate did his placement about 5 years ago, on 20k, with the fairly obvious opportunity of carrying on working for one of the world's largest IT consultancies for double the salary if it went well. He could afford to live as a) he lived in a naff flat near hangar lane gyratory, and b) he worked all the hours there were, so he had little opportunity to spend his wages and c) lived on expenses much of the time. He did it because he knew there was the prospect of 40K and a good name on his CV after graduation.

I agree with the people saying formalise it – there are far too many small businesses who advertise grad jobs when they really don't have one, so grads are rightly wary of small firms. On the other hand, there are plenty of small businesses who want to have someone for three months before they decide to sell the family silver and invest in someone's training. Something along the lines of "there will be an initial evaluation period, and success in this period will lead to XYZ" would be the way to go in my opinion.

The other thing to do is to get in touch with all the local uni careers departments. Some are rubbish, but others are really very keen, and will effectively do much of what an agent will do, without charging you for it. All unis are desperately keen to get people into jobs to improve their performance figures.

i'm graduating this sumemr (see the thread about graduating with an env type degree), and as said many times above, 'admin' puts one right off to be honest – makes it sounds like a secratery's job in a way (to me at least).
however, the more detailed description you gave about meeting clients etc actually makes it sound like a really attractive position. remember that a lot of people, when searching for jobs, will just look at the title (if its in a long list) – and i probably wouldn't look further at 'admin' jobs (unless it was in an org i REALLY wanted to work for).

£20k elsewhere would be grand, but as a non-londoner i'd be scared off that to be honest – putting that wage will increase with performance would, however, make it more attractive. the job ad HAS to have a pay level in it though. its like expensive shops, if its not advertising a price, its cos its expensive. if you're not showing a wage, one automatically (at least in my position) assumes its relatively low paid.

so, if you wanted to attract someone like me, to a job such as yours (which does actually sound pretty good), review the job title, and make explicit the opportunity for the pay to rise.
uni careers is also a good place to advertise, i use mine quite a bit.

HTH 🙂

Not trying to be funny but why a graduate?

I know it gives you a 'base level' to measure someones intelligence etc but a lot of technical peopel I know who have been really good haven't done degrees and for the type of role you're looking to fill you may find it better to look for someone who has some IT support desk experience rather than a degree?

Not trying to be funny but why a graduate?

Just as it's a client facing I tend to think it gives a base, but in reality it doesn't have to be but I'm not ruling out non grads just not getting anybody.

er. plenty of people work in london for <20k.

I think CFH is right, graduates nearly always expect a well paid job from day one (it took me a while to realise that it just doesn't happen – even 10 years ago).

My first proper job paid 16k. 3 years later it was 30k. (gone back down significantly since then, but that was a decision I took freely).

Fact is that kids are told all the way through their education that a degree will ensure they will earn higher wages. so they go to uni, spend £20k on fees and loans, and come out to discover that the lad they went to school with is getting paid more working as a carpenter/sparky/plumber. (nothing wrong with these professions BTW, it's just that the reason people go to uni, usually is to ensure a well paid career)

It's got to be a bitter pill to swallow. Fortunately most people realise that crap pay for graduates doesn't last forever as long as you're not a complete tool 🙂

hmmm, we were offering £28.5k here, (reduced to £27.5k when the recesion meant no payrises and they needed to differenciate the new grads from those whod been here a while).

Still struggled to get people to come to une carreers presentations. Our guess is they've all given up without trying and gone traveling.

Call it client suppourt rather than admin? Graduates dont want something below them, they've spent £15k on a degree, they want to feel that it's valued. Be honest, if its not a graduate role, not maying graduate pay, then it wont get a graduate.

As a guide, my uni housemate scraped though his chemistry degree and is now doing soemthing like what your asking, for a lot more money!

er. plenty of people work in london for <20k.

I think CFH is right, graduates nearly always expect a well paid job from day one (it took me a while to realise that it just doesn't happen – even 10 years ago).

Plenty of people do, yes, but as you say graduates won't want to! Guess it depends on careers, but there's a lot of graduate jobs out there for more money.

Market forces? is 18 / 20 thousand enough to attract graduates in London?

Yes, it is. I know graduates working for a fair bit less.

OP – What measures have you already taken?

It might not be a popular idea, however have you spoken to the local job centre or job centre plus, you can get them to identify, filter / advertise for suitable candidates in the local area. Sure you will get some dross but in this market alot of commercialy experienced people are looking for work.

*ps spoken by someone who know *all about current employment law

ditto, why a grad, why not anybody up for it with a bit of go and gumption, personally I think compting skills can be taught – people skills, gumption, initiative etc seem harder to learn ….

could you use skills upgrade and paid training as a job carrot AND TIE THEM to a fair payback deal. (ie when I got a certain v expensive skill – I was on pro-rata for 2 years – if I left before 2 years I paid back x/24th of training cost – after 2 years home free – I see that as fair)

you could try a 20 rising to X DEPENDENT on:
passing Quaif eaxm 1 by ..
et etc – ie
type carry on
ps – need to be fair to both sides