A friend’s mum is an acupuncturist. We stayed at hers and I was intrigued to see if it could help a knee problem. I don’t have the ‘energy lines’ that are required for it be successful… make of that what you will.

You’re just a cynic Yeti. 😉

And you don’t ‘get’ animals. 😐

I’m a very skeptical person, atheist, strict science devotee, but I am open minded about accupuncture, because, firstly I’ve had it and it worked for me, and secondly despite their being no evidence that it works yet, there is a pretty good theory of how it might work, that just needs proper research to test it.

It’s not really comparable with homeopathy as the claims and “theory” as to how it works are akin to magic and not science.

Give it a try, it’s very relaxing at least..

My Dad had a couple of strokes in the ’80s that left his right arm/hand very stiff.
He was given loads of stuff to do by the physio, but it was also suggested that he tried acupuncture. Now, my Dad is as cynical as they come, but he went fairly often & it really did help with relaxing the muscles down his right hand side & making him a lot more mobile.

I’ve had it once, and although it didn’t ‘cure’ the problem (turns out I have arthritis in my knees) it was a very odd sensation as my muscles started twitching around the needles, and tingly feeling all down my arm (the needles were in my leg!) followed by me talking utter bollocks at work later in the day with no recollection. Almost like being drunk.
My physio sister in law swears it works on a lot of her patients, and lots ask for and pay for a repeat session.

it was done with electric running thru the pins to help deaden the nerves,and ease the pain. I found it works for me

So that would be Electroconvulsive Therapy then?

firstly I’ve had it and it worked for me,

Confirmation bias

and secondly despite their being no evidence that it works yet, there is a pretty good theory of how it might work,

So you admit that there is no evidence but that there is a good theory of how it might work? Tell me what this theory is ‘coz I’ve yet to hear a scientifically or medically valid one. The only thing that I know of that gets trotted out is some stuff about “energy lines”. The thing is, if there is one thing that we as humans are quite good at (apart from deluding ourselves) it is in detecting energy. No one has every found any evidence of these lines.

that just needs proper research to test it.

There has been research, good research and and all of it points to acupuncture being useless. Oh and as for the whole “it’s ancient chinese medicine so there must be something in it”, have a look at the mortality rates in China and see what happened when they adopted science based medicine.

It’s not really comparable with homeopathy as the claims and “theory” as to how it works are akin to magic and not science.

So, exactly comparable to homeopathy then. Unless you think an imbalance of chi is a scientific principle, in which case I’m selling a bridge if you’re interested?

despite their being no evidence that it works yet, there is a pretty good theory of how it might work,

Have you been talking to Chris Morris lately?

Well cards on the table – I’m a vet and I done some training in acupuncture and use it occasionally in animals. I too am very sceptical of most “alternative medicines” but had seen some people and animals who had reputedly benefited from it so thought I’d look at it a little more.
There is some pretty solid science behind some of the basics involved. They’ve done studies in rabbits where the insertion of acupuncture needles leads to measurably more endorphins in the cerebro-spinal fluid. This response works under general aesthetic, but not if the area needled is numbed by local anaesthetic or the nerves are cut. Nerve transmission is an important part of the response. They have measured which type of nerve fibre is stimulated by inserting acupuncture needles, and its largely fast pain fibres. Imagine you’d just put your finger in a flame. The fast pain fibres are the ones that transmit the message to the brain “get your finger out of there – its going to hurt” the slow pain fibres are the ones that transmit the message that you’ve burnt your finger. So that’s perhaps why people (myself included) report that strange feeling when acupuncture needles are inserted that they think its going to hurt then it doesn’t. Acupuncture needling stimulates these fibres in muscles and connective tissue where they are never otherwise stimulated unless there is a major accident – like a broken leg – where a major rush of endorphins is part of the body’s normal response to the insult.
In chronic pain acupuncture is thought to work by closing some of the open pain pathways to the brain that are kept open by the “pain windup” system.
And some of the large and meta studies which discredit acupuncture are fairly flawed themselves. There was a huge study in Germany in people with oesteo-arthritis where the control was still to use acupuncture needles, but not in traditional Chinese acupuncture points. Acupuncture needles are likely to work in all connective tissue and muscle, so needling a couple of centimetres away from the traditional points would still get a response. And indeed there was no significant difference between these two groups. However both acupuncture groups showed twice the level of relief of those only treated with conventional drugs. Yet because there was no difference between the two needled groups, it was deemed that acupuncture didn’t work.
There’s much about acupuncture that isn’t understood, it won’t work for everyone or every condition, but there is some solid science behind it. It deserves more scientific exploration, but that’s limited by its connections with the “traditional Chinese” approach, which make claims way far and beyond what is reasonable.

Colin

So basically, you’re saying that sticking pins in someone (/thing) can be beneficial, but traditional “acupuncture” is no better or worse than making it up randomly.

IIRC, that’s pretty much what the large-scale GERAC trails found.

Cougar
I really have nothing other than a negative view of traditional Chinese acupuncture. It only serves to muddle what people think about a modern western scientific approach. It has given us the acupuncture points, which are probably areas in people which, if needled, will give a good response, but that doesn’t help me with animals. All I ask is that you don’t tar all acupuncture with the same brush – where there is evidence that it can work and how it works, give that a reasoned hearing on its own merit. And realise there are some very well connected areas of pharma based medicine which have a considerable vested interest in showing why this shouldn’t/doesn’t/mustn’t work.

Colin

Hence my comments about GERAC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Acupuncture_Trials

Actually, talking of Wikipedia, their comments on efficacy are interesting reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupuncture#Effectiveness

Particularly, the difficulty in placebo control tests, which is something you touched on.

A 2009 review concluded that the specific points chosen to needle does not matter, and no difference was found between needling according to “true” points chosen by traditional acupuncture theory and “sham” acupuncture points unrelated to any theory.

Worked for my tennis elbow where other treatments didn’t… It was strangely relaxing and the effects seemed immediate.

It’s 3am and I can’t sleep so I thought I would give you the benefit of my experience…

Please bear with me – I’ve told this tale before. Many years ago, I slept badly on my right arm. I awoke to a sensation close to severe pins and needles. The whole of my right arm was numb and slightly tingly.

I went about my normal morning routine, occasionally pinching my fingers and bicep, waiting for the numbness to dissipate. It didn’t – it stayed the same, and after a few hours I realised that this wasn’t normal.

To cut a long story short, I spent hours at various NHS practitioners, lost my job (driver) and was diagnosed as having a radial nerve palsy with irrevocable nerve damage. In short, the doctors told me I’d never have my right arm back. Western medicine had given up on me. Nerves don’t grow back, they told me.

So I strapped it up, used my road bike and learnt to roll cigarettes against a wall with my left hand but my life as it had been was over, and staying positive wasn’t easy.

My dad (almost estranged) got wind of what had happened and told his ex-wife, a traditional Chinese medicine doctor. She was a hard-nosed business woman who had built a business based purely on force of will, complemented with training in the Red Army.

She demanded that I attend her clinic in Edinburgh and I obeyed. I was stuck full of needles, given deep tissue massage by various minions and fed vile potions. It was made clear that THIS WAS NO QUICK FIX. I would have to suffer for a good few weeks and despite knowing that it was all humbug and hogwash, I started to feel a tingle in my fingertips.

A few weeks, and many hundreds of needles later, I was able to curl my fingers into a fist, and within a month my wasted right arm was back to normal. Seven years ago, I used it to unintentionally break a body-builder’s humerus whilst arm-wrestling (I’m not proud) (well maybe a little bit – I’m a skinny lightweight).

Was I converted? Yes, actually. I spent a Summer working in the clinic, and the next Summer setting up a new clinic in Inverness.

Sorry for the essay – if you do go down the TCM route, give it time. Give it money. It might work.

My Dad has neuralgia of the tongue and the Dr’s have tried all sorts of things to easy the pain, right up to heroin none of it really worked, as a last resort he tried accupuncture and swears by it.
My son has recently broken his arm really badly and the accupunturist (who has been a GP & a surgeon in UK) thinks they can do a lot for his recovery, we’ll give it a try and see how it goes, whats to lose?

I think user-removed’s post is going to give the STW-science-big-hitters posse something to be going on with today.

Acupuncture = woo.
The plural of anecdote is not data.

I think user-removed’s post is going to give the STW-science-big-hitters posse something to be going on with today.

Why would user-removed’s anecdote of any more worth than any other? Why would the usual explinations of placebo, regression to the mean, confimration bias not be applicable here too?

I don’t have much belief for the traditional acupuncture and ideas behind it but I have had help from acupuncture done in physiotherapy.

Reasoning for using the needles weas that allowed manipulation of hard to reach muscle areas (inner part of glutes) and it really helped to relax the muscles which couldn’t be accessed manually. I used to go to this physio/sports massage for several years about every two-three months and the use of needles was required only once.

I think user-removed’s post is going to give the STW-science-big-hitters posse something to be going on with today.

Misdiagnosed by the doctors, whatever was wrong with his arm recovered naturally. To wit, it might well have got better anyway. There’s no control group so who knows.

The acupuncture might have cured it, of course. Point I’m making is, it’s not exactly problematic to assign other explanations to it.

whats to lose?

Your inheritance?

Reasoning for using the needles weas that allowed manipulation of hard to reach muscle areas (inner part of glutes) and it really helped to relax the muscles which couldn’t be accessed manually

Bloody hell, how deep were they inserting the needles to get into your muscles!

And they’re off…

whats to lose?

Your inheritance?

You have a point there 🙂
Still Dad is a sceptic generally, he swears by accupuncture so if it makes him suffer less I can live with it. If it helps my son too then I am a convert

Good book worth a read, make up your own mind.

I’ve been meaning to get that for a while. Worth a punt if it’s half as good as Bad Science.

Bloody hell, how deep were they inserting the needles to get into your muscles!

I think the actual needles were 3-4 inches long as I was lying on my stomach. Had I seen their size beforehand I might have refused the treatment but luckily I didn’t 🙂