Here's a point to consider-are these kids or any others born bad? Are there some people who are actually evil and beyond help?
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Absolutely shocking, dispicable, and many other words not suitable....
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Posted 2 years ago #
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RS - the simple fact is that the Norway approach means a great chance of the offending children ending up as productive members of society.
]There is no deterrence in treating children as criminals. Rehabilitation does not rely on them being criminalised. Do you really think a civilised society needs retribution on damaged children?
Posted 2 years ago # -
the perpatrtors of this werent born bad they can be considered victims also, despite their crimes
from the bbc
The boys' mother, who has seven sons including the two defendants, described to a consultant psychiatrist being subjected to serious violence by their father.
Mr Kelson described one incident when her partner said he would "take a knife to her and slice her face to bits".
He added: "These threats were made in front of the children."
The barrister said his client's upbringing could be summarised by a reference in one report to his "toxic home life".
Mr Kelson said his client had been shown horror films at his home when he was as young as 10.
Police video shows the route the boys took before and after the horrific attack
He said the films were "extremely violent" and "gruesome movies in the extreme".
The barrister said the boy also had access to his father's pornographic DVDs.
Mr Kelson said his client would also drink cider, had 10 cigarettes a day and smoked cannabis grown on his father's allotment from the age of nine.
they never really stood a chance of having a normal life did they
Posted 2 years ago # -
just as background I seem to remember that the kids had largely been left to fend for themselves as their mother was drug addicted - they had to spend time hunting for both food and clothes in bins. I can't imagine having to do that as 8 yr olds. By the time they hit foster care they were unmanageable (by most foster parents I guess). Not trying to excuse what they did, just pointing another big fat finger at the original parents.
has to be a link here somewhere, there ya go http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/sep/06/edlington-attack-children-social-workers
Posted 2 years ago # -
just pointing another big fat finger at the original parents.
except that's a great cop out. We already know the parents are deeply damaged too, so blaming them has no useful function, and is merely passive, or pointlessly active if you try to punish them in the aftermath
Posted 2 years ago # -
Why is anyone even surprised by this?
We have a society where we create an underclass of people, where life chances are non existent for some families and we ignore them until events like this occur. It would end up cheaper for us to have sent these kids to which ever private school you choose rather than attempting to lock them up after the fact.
To deal with it requires a massive, massive investment that must be sustained and increased year on year, and which, if it works will look like wasted money.
We live in a society which is quite happy to demonise kids like this, even though they are the product of two or three or four generations of poorly educated, probably mentally ill parents and grandparents...
To summarise, they're not evil; they are damaged.
Posted 2 years ago # -
We already know the parents are deeply damaged too, so blaming them has no useful function, and is merely passive, or pointlessly active if you try to punish them in the aftermath
It's only useful in that it helps mitigate the natural reaction to want to punish the children as severely as possible, they aren't completely responsible for how they have ended up. You're right it that it would be pointless to punish the parents in the aftermath
Posted 2 years ago # -
You're right it that it would be pointless to punish the parents in the aftermath
thats almost like saying it would be pointless to punish a murderer after he has killed. It is clearly their upbringing thats made them what they are, although at the same time i'm sure you can have posh kids turn into evil little shits too.
Whatever caused it, something has to be done to stop them re-offending whether it be locking them up or counselling, probably a combo of both. They shouldn't be excused of all responsibility.
Posted 2 years ago # -
thats almost like saying it would be pointless to punish a murderer after he has killed
but that's probably true too! Does punishment ever work ? Doesn't it just foster resentment ? Certainly brutalising people is unlikely to improve their behaviour. Locking someone away may prevent their scope for bad behaviour, or perhaps just focus it onto other offenders, but without other rehabilitation it may well just make them more careful not to get caught next time.
Posted 2 years ago # -
According to BarnsleyMitch post above, it appears similar to the Mary Bells crime, where the child is massively influenced by the actions and attitude of the parent. In the case of Mary Bells, her mother was a prostitute who specialised in S&M, whipping, mock strangulation etc. Mary was regularly exposed to it, so she ended up strangling another kid.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I wish, as I would hope many others on here do, that there was an answer to this - punishing the mother isnt going to change anything, what's done is done, and it sounds as if her life is punishment enough anyway. Apart from the two boys involved in the attack, she has another five kids, and we can only hope that someones making sure they're ok. I would imagine that social services will carry much of the blame for this, but when the media vilifies them for everything they do, what chance do they have?.
Sadly, most peoples attention seems to be focussed on how the boys that carried out this awful f***ing attack should be punished, and the two poor little buggers that were subjected to it get overlooked, and ultimately end up reliant on social and health services for the rest of their lives. It sometimes feels like our society is headed straight down the sh***er, or am I being just a bit too 'Daily mail'?Posted 2 years ago # -
Posted 2 years ago #
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There is only one thing for it! Put something in the water and stop these B*&%£*ds from breeding and passing on their sh!tty DNA.
Oh is social engineering not PC these days?
Posted 2 years ago # -
barnsleymitch - Member
................... It sometimes feels like our society is headed straight down the sh***er, or am I being just a bit too 'Daily mail'?
Paying too much attention to negative stories in the press. Murder rates are at a 20 yr low. all crime is much reduced from 10 yrs ago. children are safer now than they ever have been. Imagine a childs life in Victorian times if you were average working class compared to now.
Seriously - life is good. Engendering fear of crime is a deliberate aim of the right wing press - they are creating a moral panic out of nothing
Posted 2 years ago # -
I'm glad that no-one did that before I adopted my kids, inbred. It's not about genetics, it's about bringing kids up in a safe, nurturing environment. As I said earlier, kids arent born monsters - they only learn from their environment.
Posted 2 years ago # -
"Seriously - life is good. Engendering fear of crime is a deliberate aim of the right wing press - they are creating a moral panic out of nothing"
I'm just tired TJ, and probably ready to get out of forensics - when it's all you see on a day to day basis, the positives seem hard to come by.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Put something in the water and stop these B*&%£*ds from breeding and passing on their sh!tty DNA.
if it were their DNA then they'd not be responsible at all...
However, most of us, good and bad, drink water!As I said earlier, kids arent born monsters - they only learn from their environment.
isn't that simplistic ? I think homo sapiens is basically a very aggressive creature - with the wit to wreak terible mayhem - though we also have a strong tendency to imitate and cooperate. Most of us learn to control and channel these traits to harmless or useful ends
Posted 2 years ago # -
Just try to remember that crime is at a historically low level at the moment and crimes such as this are vary rare indeed.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Oh I know the statistics TJ, just struggling to stay positive at the moment - this happened a few miles down the road from where I live, so I suppose it feels a bit more personal, if that makes sense.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Ok - try this one then - IIRC you are the sort of person that has some of the responsibility for the current low crime levels - so even tho all you see is the shite - you stop that shite flowing over the rest of us. ta.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Cheers TJ, and I'll try not to moan about 'more f***ing paperwork' when I do my next HCR20!
Posted 2 years ago # -
IIRC you are the sort of person that has some of the responsibility for the current low crime levels
good try, though I wonder if there's any evidence of a connection between policing acvtivity and crime? There might be no correlation, or it might be negative where more active policing exposes more crimes to view ?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Simon - hasnt the nature versus nurture debate been done to death? I'm stressed, feeling a bit flat, and am frankly too knackered to discuss this on much more than a visceral level. Sorry, but accepting that kids are born wicked and need training not to be is a bit beyond me right now.
It's not a cop out, seriously, but me and the wife went through a lot of s**t whilst adopting our kids, none of which I'm prepared to discuss on here, and this case kind of opens up a lot of old wounds for me.Posted 2 years ago # -
Simon - so you don't think that the actions of those charged with reducing crime - police / social workers / probation officers / psychiatric nurses etc make any difference?
Posted 2 years ago # -
hasnt the nature versus nurture debate been done to death?
I believe there's still plenty of scope for controversy. I read a fascinating book called The Nurture Assumption which makes a good case for most received ideas on parenting being entirely unfounded.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Simon - so you don't think that the actions of those charged with reducing crime - police / social workers / probation officers / psychiatric nurses etc make any difference?
I was only thinking about the police, and their largely reactive stance. It could be that their existence is enough, that and people grassing each other up. I was just suggesting that the things they do to attempt to forestall crime might not be effective.
Posted 2 years ago # -
SFB - get real FFS.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Well who am I to criticise which ever esteemed academic wrote that Simon? as I've tried saying, I'm too tired, and yes I'll admit it, subjective right now, to enter into a debate. If winning an argument means that much to you, knock yourself out.
Posted 2 years ago # -
SFB - get real FFS.
so you know the answer ? No investigation required ? We often think we know things whe we've just made them up...
Posted 2 years ago # -
I think you will find there has been much investigation of both things and your ideas are just complete twaddle. do you have any idea how the police and criminal justice system works? For example police are not just reactive but are very proactive.
Posted 2 years ago # -
For example police are not just reactive but are very proactive.
or at least that's what they tell you ? And investigated by whom - and without vested interest ?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Whenever people use nice round figures like 10 or 20 I'm suspicious.
Crickey I think suggested the only thing I could really agree with. An underclass with no hope in hell has been created and perpetuated by deliberate lack of investment in practical educational pathways and deliberate policies to make work not pay and any educational pathway out of subsistence toil unaffordable for the majority, especially those out of their teens and realising their options. So why be surprised when the peasants turn nihilistic?
Since the people administering the country are all so well educated themselves,(and I hope the challengers to that postition have at least a 2:1 from a GOOD UNIVERSITY) I can only assume this was deliberate. I'm sure someone will be along to explain how it's "flexibility" or something to do with how the world works in Anglo Saxon Capitalist economys and not elsewhere.
Vile actions by the two boys for sure, but who hasn't done something incredibly stupid and potentially dangerous at that age? I did plenty. God knows what I may have thought normal if my father had provided access to vodka, weed, and adult pornography as well as regular lessons in how to beat the shit out of my mother and brothers at that age.
I'm no expert, but I think they need some serious **** psychological help rather than stringing up. What if it was you with that upbringing? Are you sure you would have turned out any better?
Posted 2 years ago # -
SFB - go away and actually learn something about what you prattle on about. On this one you are showing your ignorance and stupidity.
Occasionally you have a point to your argument - on this you have no point and no idea of what is happening.
I have worked alongside the police a bit and have some small idea of what happens. Do you? As for investigation of criminality - lots of good academic stuff over the years.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Sodafarls - eaay rounding up but on the murder rates thats was what was quoted after last years stats came out.
Posted 2 years ago # -
The family are from a roughish estate maybe a mile and a half from my house. Doncaster Social Services are utterly failed, and the recent management influx hasn't started making a difference yet. For maybe ten years, there has been a succession of unqualified or isolated and unsupported senior managers. The result on the ground has been absolute chaos. Rare to see the same face more than a couple of meetings in a row to a case conference, new bodies never up to speed, and always an overoptimistic and half arsed response when you get one, which can be difficult. At our school we have a senior manager spending 2/3 or more of their time on child protection work, trying hard to make sure that none of our children fall through the net. In the rougher areas, neglect, violence and sexual abuse aren't hard to find. Possibly as big a problem is lack of aspiration, and dependency on the state, drugs, alcohol and Jeremy Kyle culture is a norm. For the good guys trying hard every day to the good things for our children it is really grinding. In our primary school we are running at around 15% of the children subject of a child protection plan. Sure, lots of families need lots of intervention now, and at the school we are working our balls off to make sure they get it, but unless the underclass are reengaged with the rest of society, we aren't going to get very far.
Posted 2 years ago #
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