I got into it for the Porsches and rockstar lifestyle

Become a contractor then. A mate of mine does that. Not sure what he earns exactly but I do know he is the same age as me, writes very similar code, and currently owns four houses.

looked a total tool on it

Young guy went past me on an x8 yesterday, on the south side of the Thames near the globe. Seemed pretty smooth on it.

I’ve sent am email to the dept of transport to see what their opinion on them is.

They look fun to me, and you look less of a tool than people on those small scooters, and they don’t look like fun at all. But just walking in suit trousers and trainers or walking shoes looks pretty toolish, anyway.

I write C# ASP.Net all day long and love it. It pays well, too. I’m very happy doing what I do after years of sales / customer service dead end jobs. These helped enormously though as they taught me communication skills. The old joke about ‘How do you identify an extrovert programmer? They stare at YOUR shoes’ has some truth in it!

All the tools you need for web dev are free and there are some good tutorials available for free – I’m entirely self taught and had a couple of lucky breaks. Go for it. You don’t need a degree – I don’t have one – just a willingness to learn and the ability to get on with people.

Go for it and good luck!

Don’t you mean introvert?

And trouser length was a clue as well, although now some showing of the mankles is fashionable with the hip crowd.

No, the introverted programmer stares at his own shoes…

Become a contractor then. A mate of mine does that. Not sure what he earns exactly but I do know he is the same age as me, writes very similar code, and currently owns four houses.

I know some places where contractors are looking at somewhere between a £800 and £1200 day rate.

Become a contractor then. A mate of mine does that. Not sure what he earns exactly but I do know he is the same age as me, writes very similar code, and currently owns four houses.

I was but tbh it’s not as good as it sounds ….it has ups and downs …

currently is the operative word…seen it go boom when the Internet bubble burst the first time had about 9-10 months of enforced holiday 🙂

I’m Too old to bother contracting again just looking forward to retirement…But once you have some skills contracting is very good to gain more experience and gain the type of non programming soft skills of working in what can be a stressful environment….they don’t always just throw money at you without a reason… 🙂

currently is the operative word…seen it go boom when the Internet bubble burst the first time had about 9-10 months of enforced holiday

Nah. He, like me, is a real programmer (microprocessors and embedded system) not a web jockey with a bookmark to W3Schools 😉

There was a downturn when the gov messed about with contracting regulations but he just moved to Germany and then Switzerland for work then came back when it settled down.

Obviously it helps that he is single and child-free.

the type of non programming soft skill

I suspect this is the key thing that contractors have: they are not just coders but also good at selling themselves, negotiating and running it as a business.

Dmorts,

What sort of programming do you want to do?

PHP programmers are in abundance in the UK. Good PHP guys are not, but you’ll struggle to show you are good without much experience. They typically work in a Web world where being on top of the latest javascript, cs, ajax, html stuff is just as important and the real measure is how quick can you bang out bug free code!
I don’t really follow the asp market but it is probably similar.

There are still plenty of places using c++ for proper hard stuff, but you would be going in right at the bottom in a market full of really experienced people.

However you have two skill sets which I suspect are in Demand: an understanding of acoustic / physics (and I assume Dsp?) and electronics. Malab is commonly used as you know in these sort of areas, but it’s often not suitable for translation beyond protype into production (closed libraries, system overhead etc). If you wanted to keep going down that line then python is probably more de rigour and could lead to various career routes. If you wanted to carve out a niche then possibly helping move your specialist Malab type code into something much lower level like C that can be run embedded would make sense. Beware pure c programmers all wear sandals with socks and are afraid of daylight… It may be wise to balance any c with modern stiff sstuff to avoid getting pigeon holed.

The other area you have skills in is VBA programming. This is pretty unsexy so most devs want to avoid it, but it’s hard enough to scare off the average spreadsheet user. There is a market for freelancers doing this stuff, but also in some sme’s where you might end up with all sorts of other it stuff. Getting into that is probably about knowing the company though (half the benefit will come from knowing what they are trying to achieve and seeing how to save Time). I’m not sure VBA is the best way to achieve 80% of the stuff it is used for and so you might find this is either incredibly frustrating or likely to get usurped by better approaches in the future – if you have broad experience you will be able to advise but most of what I see is devs steering people to the tool they always use.

What differentiates proper developers from amateur programmers is experience of developing in the real world, and as part of teams. So knowing how to use SVN or Git effectively, unit testing, qa processes and documentation, estimating time, making code that is robust and user friendly for the public not other geeks. If you can do those things you are already a developer.

My experience is some people get fed up coding after a while. They want to move into architecture, or design or business analysis etc. If you are going to invest a lot of time or money in redirecting your career you would want to make sure it was the right direction.

You can learn languages on code academy. Im not sure if you can Learn those tools the same way? I am not sure if you can become certificated in this stuff? If you can cheaply it would help an employer digesting your CV. a portfolio is always helpful but if you can’t show professional work then involvement in community projects is good. Even better if you were one of the core team or original creator. That said a lot of junior projects will be working on someone elses project perhaps maintaining or extending code, so if you can show you have the ability to work without writing from scratch that is very helpful. The phrase I hate most is “might be quicker if I just rewrote it my way”.

Generally I like my devs to know their way round Unix at least to an elementary level, but obviously some jobs will never need that. If that is likely and you don’t have any real experience there are some very simple Unix certifications available which would bolster a CV.

In general a degree in comp Sci or even soft eng is not essential for programming jobs, and can even be a disadvantage.

I write a lot of VBA stuff in my job, mainly expert systems for other employees / customers to use. Personally I really like it, pays very well (although that’s the money’s in the expert bit rather than the coding bit) and very varied. If you’re good at data analysis / data presentation you can do very well writing what is pretty simple stuff code wise. The skill is in making complex problems appear really simple using your tools, which is more UI / work flow design than pure SW design. I think the trick is finding a niche rather than just being a generic SW developer.

In general a degree in comp Sci or even soft eng is not essential for programming jobs, and can even be a disadvantage.

Not essential I agree with. But a disadvantage? How so?

Not essential I agree with. But a disadvantage? How so?

because experience tells that they know less than they think they do, and they believe having a degree entitles them to a better job / career progression / money but actually they often have a pretty poor work ethic (as new grads) etc. Computer science degrees in particular cover so much that they really haven’t ggained practical indepth knowledg, and have typically been taught by people who know the theory but are disconnected from the real world of commercial software development. Software engineering degrees are marginally better but seem to teach people that they are engineers, but stifle the creativity that can make good programmers.

If I have three people in front of me with the same background, education, etc until one of them decides to go to uni for three years to study computing another studies something else but has a real enthusiasm for programming in their own time, or as a sideline to their degree and the third goes and gets a real entry level job (or even and admin role and quickly shows their it capabilities) and gets two or three years real life programming undercover belt, I’ll take the last guy for routine work more often than not. The scientist with programing skills if the science is relevant (and since computer science appears to teach no real scientific rigour, that will be whenever there is science to do). The comp Sci grad only has an advantage if I need the real academic knowledge of computing – 90% of programming jobs don’t. However the belief that this is what they are qualified for makes them hard work to manage in mainstream roles. Obviously I am talking in generalities but if all you have is a comp Sci or soft eng degree then someone who has 80% of your coding skill but has real work experience or other relevant knowledge has an advantage. If others are advantaged you are disadvantaged.

Interesting perspective poly, thanks.

My experience is different. I find a lot of self-taught enthusiast folk are often competent programmers but have trouble with fundamentals (e.g. The difference between the heap and the stack, what a pointer is, how to create common data structures, how to write common algorithms, polymorphism, inheritance, SOLID, what complexity means, commonly used patterns etc etc).

That said, we have a policy of only hiring senior engineers, so we rarely have contact with fresh-faced grads.

Graham, we can technical interview for those sorts of things. If you hire grads, even people who apparently did the same course you will see its not always certain that they have any understanding of those sort of issues, never mind their use in practice, although they will recognise the words.

Your approach of only hiring senior devs may not be a bad one, but I have found the juniors more open minded – the experienced guys are the ones who always want to do things their way. The better they are at the more abstract aspects of programming the worse they seem to be at the commercial realities! Yes I’d love to rewrite this four year old legacy code that we threw together as a proof of concept, using your great approach and I am sure it would be easier to maintain (until the next great revolution comes along), but it’s used by ten people has been tested extensively and they just want one new feature so no we aren’t going to invest in a three month project because it’s better software engineering… Which is the same answer I gave him when he asked the same question three months ago… Sorry rant over!

That’s what I found when I was a contractor, the employer was always more interested in me having a clear, maintainable coding style rather than being able to use the latest/less known techniques.

Maybe look into companies that write software in your specialism and see if they need testers. Bit boring, but you can show your coding skills by automating anything that can be automated and get in that way. Also work on open source stuff to get used to other people’s code and stuff. If you really want to code and have the aptitude, go for it, it’s a great profession with a huge skills shortage and no sign of slowing down.

I find a lot of self-taught enthusiast folk are often competent programmers but have trouble with fundamentals (e.g. The difference between the heap and the stack, what a pointer is, how to create common data structures, how to write common algorithms, polymorphism, inheritance, SOLID, what complexity means, commonly used patterns etc etc).

But most of those things, like SOLID principles, the pattern movement etc, did not come from academia but from ‘the real world’, based on what people had learnt from experience.

All of that stuff can just as well, and probably be better, learnt from the original books/papers than from some, probably mediocre, tutor at university.

Knuth for the algorithms if you want to go deep, Tanenbaum, Coplien, Gang of four, Gang of five, Schmidt, Martin Fowler, Plop books, Uncle Bob, etc.

A lot of cvs we see have all the buzz words on but depth of knowledge seems to often be very low nowadays – some of the the things they struggle with would have been patently obvious to them with a bit more low-level understanding of things like stacks and heaps.

until one of them decides to go to uni for three years to study computing

Big difference between Computing and Computer Science. You can do a whole Comp Sci degree without writing a line code if you really want to.

you can do a whole Comp Sci degree without writing a line code if you really want to.

Certainly not the case when I did it.

? where? 🙂

Plenty of folk are good at programming without the CS degree but it does give the basic grounding, principles, before you’re loose on the outside world. The best compromise is some sort of 3rd year stint in industry, that taught me a heck of a lot about deadlines, code reviews, getting stuff done in a team that all years of lectures couldn’t, and with a great bunch of folk as well (ICL Dalkeith).

Then, and latterly, some of the great programmers I worked with weren’t CS graduates, they’d be plumbers, astrophysicists, but a good proportion were maths graduates or similar.

Still can’t think of anything I’d rather do.

Hello! Thanks for the replies. I am revisiting this after being distracted for a few months (moved house, got married 🙂 ). I also had been following up a couple of opportunities with a local company. These were in my specialist area of acoustics and audio but appear to have frustratingly come to nothing.

I’ve talked to some mates who are in the tech world and on the fringes of programming. They’re saying look at Java, also the biggest thing currently is mobile app development. Thoughts on that?

Beyond that, other areas that are growing are data analytics (e.g. big data) and adaptive design (e.g. making web apps fit lots of different devices). And of course, search engine optimisation (SEO).

Data analytics might be something I can get into, as it’s something I have some experience of, data processing, finding trends etc.

It’s all about deep AI now.

The kind that can replace expensive programmers with a vast datacentre somewhere with cheap energy, lots of cold water and low taxes.

EDIT: I’m only partly joking….

In terms of what areas to look at I’d say it falls to into two categories:
1). the stuff lots of companies use (C++, Java etc.) – good choice for finding a stable career
2). emerging technologies – good choice if you’re looking at contracting

I work on the infrastructure side so can’t advise on programming but without any real selling points on your CV I’d just look around locally for junior dev jobs and try and use it to get a year’s experience and go on from there (could even look at IT volunteering or work placements, my first year in IT was on an NVQ placement scheme which I got £10 extra for a 40 hour week on top of income support – the experience was invaluable though).

On the contracting side I wish someone had told me how lucrative security cleared contracting can be when I was younger. It’s hard to get into but if you end up somewhere they’ll sponsor you for DV clearance then the world’s your oyster. DV cleared contractors have much more job stability and also get the highest rates (we have people here doing junior level stuff on 3x my hourly rate and some have been here 10+ years, the problem is you can’t find permanent DV cleared people to replace them)

Thanks!

Where’s good to look for jobs? I remember I was looking on cwjobs years ago, got my first job after uni doing IT support for RBS through that. That was in 2006. Depressingly I worked out I’m on the same salary now as I was back then (worked out my hourly rate for current job). This really brought it home to me, quite a WTF am I doing moment. Not that it’s all about money, more about it highlighting how my current employer values me.

Also where’s good to go to start brushing up on coding?

Data analytics, really fashionable can you do it? What’s your stats background?
Not trying to be negative but I work for a small consultancy and work across a lot of industries and spaces. People want either experexperience or raw talent. I consider myself lucky to get a job with a specialist interest in a niche field but see the data stuff flooded with cheap grads or cheap outsourcing

What’s your stats background?

SW – Use of Matlab and Excel (inc. VBA)
Applications – Recent examples:
-Analysis of long term noise levels (measurement taken every 10 mins for up to 4 weeks at 4 different sites), correlating this with measured rainfall, wind speeds and wind direction over same period at the same sampling rate. Allocating the data points into specific periods, daytime, night-time, weekends. Automatically and manually excluding data points. The net result is a trend for each site that shows how the noise level varies with wind speed and direction.
-Measurement of a batch of electronic components (or entire products) various parameters, initially and then at specific points through an environmental testing process (heat/freezing/humidity/drop). I built this into a 3D table in Matlab (X – component ID, Y – component parameter, Z – stage of environment test). Then created routines to analyse/show trends.

Overall I tend to find that I ‘over-engineer’ analysis when compared to colleagues. This may take slightly longer to set-up initially but if someone asks for a slight change of parameters further down the line, I know I’m able to accommodate it a lot quicker and more easily.

It’s hard to get into but if you end up somewhere they’ll sponsor you for DV clearance then the world’s your oyster.

It’s actually pretty easy. The downside is they may want you to carry a gun and lie in a ditch for a few years before you get to go contracting around Aldershot!

Have a look at R. Free opensource stats program, pretty commonly used. A bit of programming knowledge needed. I’m sure there’s tons of resources for it where you can teach yourself.

I’m a data analyst/business analyst (graduate) so only been in the role 10 months now. I mainly use SAS and Excel (VBA) for all of my analytical needs.

I did learn some SPSS at Uni as well but I don’t rate it.

Have you tried contacting the noise teams in environmental consultancies?

Have you tried contacting the noise teams in environmental consultancies?

Guess where I work currently 😀

I’ve found that my technical ability is not valued in the sector. The need for in-depth knowledge of acoustics is not there. If you know how to logarithmically sum two numbers, you’re at the right level. Everything is very simplistic.

[digression] Also bigjim do you work for an environmental consultancy? Looks like you’re Edinburgh based, like me. If so I wondered who? [/digression]

I might have found something:

CodeClan

This is a Scottish government supported, 16 week course to take people with zero coding experience to job ready junior developers. It’s intensive at 60+ hours a week. I went to their info evening yesterday, they seem like a competent setup.
So, it looks like what I’m looking for…… but here’s the sting, it costs £4,500!

Thoughts?

Dmorts, I know the code clan guys. It’s a serious option, the cost is a way to keep out people who aren’t that serious. I am a little sceptical about how good they think they can make people in sixteen weeks, but based on the quality of some graduates we have seen recently if you have right mindset this could be a great way to get started. There is a chronic shortage of good talent in Edinburgh. BEWARE though it’s not a fast track to riches. Employers will be looking to comedian as a source of affordable developers not yet another bunch of people looking to earn 50k+ three yrs after graduating, whilst actually doing less and less real work!

Thoughts?

do they have any industry links – ready to pick up their keen graduates ?

do they have any industry links – ready to pick up their keen graduates ?

Yes, this is part of their strategy. In fact the partner companies may even be contributing to the course costs… although I’m not 100% on that, as I overheard it from another conversation.

BEWARE though it’s not a fast track to riches. Employers will be looking to comedian as a source of affordable developers not yet another bunch of people looking to earn 50k+ three yrs after graduating, whilst actually doing less and less real work!

I think I could stomach the costs (somehow!) if knew what the likely starting salary would be as a junior dev from this course?

the cost is a way to keep out people who aren’t that serious

Well in addition to the £4.5k it’s the living costs/loss of earnings for 4 months. So in total it could cost up to £10k, although obviously could be offset by scrimping. Unfortunately I have a mortgage to pay which isn’t going to budge. If there was a part-time option it would be much more appealing

What does a part time masters in software engineering cost?

What does a part time masters in software engineering cost?

More, but their selling point of this course is that you’re ready to do a full on dev job the day you walk though the office door from leaving the course.

It’s likely that a software engineering degree, especially a Masters, is not likely to teach you the vocational day to day skills* that the employers are looking for. You’re going to need a bit of polishing and I’ve heard this from many people, not just the CodeClan guys

*E.g. working in an Agile environment, working with others, working with other people’s code, version control

Long term the masters will probably serve you better as it looks better on your cv.

For this course I would want to know that I had a job with one of the partner companies.

Ideally you would want to interview with that company with a view to a job after the training to make sure the project is something you would want to do, you like the environment/people/culture and they like you, etc.