Try the Quakers – amazing power of silence and prayer without the unnecessary liturgy and adornments.

I see there’s some argument over the terms

The terms are pretty well defined, I thought? They only really get wooly when someone posits some form of “you can’t be an atheist / agnostic because of some logic failure or misunderstanding I’ve just made up” type of argument.

Atheism is the rejection of the belief in god(s), agnosticism is ostensibly “I neither believe not disbelieve.” Which is why I laughed like a drain at Derek’s argument on the first page, which was broadly:

“Everyone with a belief system different from mine is stupid.”

“Oh? Why, what do you believe?”

“I don’t know.”

Try the Quakers – amazing power of silence and prayer without the unnecessary liturgy and adornments.

Also, great breakfasts.

in the grand scheme of things Religion has been a hugely positive thing for the human race

Wow.

GrahamS – Member
just to arrogant to accept their might be a higher power than their own.
You’re stepping into territory that dereknightrider and TheBrick touched on there.

I doubt that many, if any, atheists would be short-sighted enough to think that humans were the absolute pinnacle of evolution and the very best possible thing that the universe is capable of.

We only have a sample size of one habitable planet and there are potentially billions upon billions of them out there.

Atheism doesn’t reject that. Neither does it arrogantly state that we know everything (as dereknightrider tried to imply).

Atheism is just the rejection of a belief in religious deities – nothing more.

I didn’t imply atheists state they know everything, other than my early ‘just as stupid as theists’ throwaway comment which was I accept a tad flippant, I pointed out that they had made their mind up there is no God or Supreme being or deity, which they can’t possibly know, so they are as wrong as those who do.

Atheists not arrogant? That’s a new one, I must frame that.

I worked with a man for several years who was super religous. We used to have interesting debates about it quite often. I decided to stop debating when he said he believed that I should renounce my homosexual friends ,because they were going to burn in hell and deserved to do so!
My nana thought her the sun shone out of her local vicars arse , until he was convicted of fiddling with kids.

IMO there’s good and bad in all walks of life ,it just seems alot of the bad is done in various religions name. Which removes the Faith for me.

I’ve met a few religious types who want to save the rest of us, but they’re very much in the minority

erm evangelism is a central tenet in a lot of faiths

and typically have some sort of mild mental health issue to accompany it

couldn’t possibly comment

I consider myself Atheist not Agnostic because I choose not to believe in the existence of God or the possibility of the existence of God. The fact that I also accept I can’t possibly KNOW doesn’t come into it. I don’t prescribe to the idea that if I can’t prove something doesn’t exist then it might do. If that makes me arrogant then belief in something for which there is no evidence must also be arrogant surely?

Cougar – Moderator
I see there’s some argument over the terms
The terms are pretty well defined, I thought? They only really get wooly when someone posits some form of “you can’t be an atheist / agnostic because of some logic failure or misunderstanding I’ve just made up” type of argument.

Atheism is the rejection of the belief in god(s), agnosticism is ostensibly “I neither believe not disbelieve.” Which is why I laughed like a drain at Derek’s argument on the first page, which was broadly:

“Everyone with a belief system different from mine is stupid.”

“Oh? Why, what do you believe?”

“I don’t know.”

You didn’t ask what I believe, I just pointed out that those without were as silly shall we say as those with, when really we don’t know and the description for those of us that admit we don’t know, is Agnostic.

If there were a description other than Jedi Knight for those of us that believe in the Force I might have used that, but it wouldn’t exactly have been taken seriously would it and since I don’t really know anybody that well, best stick to known terms.

I always thought that gnosticism was about ‘knowing’ something. So I (like Richard Dawkins btw) am an ‘agnostic atheist’ – someone who doesn’t know if god(s) exist but based on evidence and probability will live my life as if they do not.

Although my view can be changed by evidence.

Similarly you can get agnostic theists which move to the side of ‘living life as if they do exist’, then you get gnostic theists (“god(s) definitely *do* exist!”) and gnostic atheists (“god(s) definitly do *not* exist!”).

I pointed out that they had made their mind up there is no God or Supreme being or deity, which they can’t possibly know, so they are as wrong as those who do.

Do you believe in that cosmic teapot then? Or faeries at the bottom of your garden? Or those monsters that hide under your bed but turn invisible when you look for them with your torch? Or magical unicorns that can fart rainbows?

You can’t possibly know these things don’t exist either.

That doesn’t make it “arrogant” to “make up your mind” that the lack of evidence means you have no good reason to believe in them.

I pointed out that they had made their mind up there is no God or Supreme being or deity, which they can’t possibly know, so they are as wrong as those who do

made a decision based on available evidence, we’ll have to wait and see how many change their stance if new evidence comes to light – could be a very long wait! I think you’re going to struggle with stating that those who base decisions on evidence are equally as stupid as those who pluck an idea out of the air (or copy others beliefs – whose origins seem to have been plucked out of the air)

plus you can’t prove a negative, so if there is no god we can never “know” that there isn’t, so you can label people agnostic if you want, you could also label them agnostic russel’steapot-ers or agnostic gardenfairy-ers if you want but I don’t think it would really help matters.

Wow

Good spot, that’s a bold claim indeed.

I’d be hard pressed to judge whether religion has been positive or negative on the whole, that’s a Big Question™.

I’d perhaps speculate that religion has been beneficial overall if you look at it historically. All the murdering and various attempts at genocide aside, religions have attempted to build communities, to bring people together, to provide hope, to provide guidance and morality to the great unwashed, to enforce laws, and try to answer some other Big Questions™. In the absence of any real knowledge about much at all, it’s probably served us well on balance.

These days, I’m less sure. It’s holding us back scientifically as organised religion tries ever more desperately to retro-fit scientific theory and discoveries into their belief systems (or, worse, argue that it’s wrong and start pushing things like the ironically-named Intelligent Design). It’s used as an excuse by extremist loonies to justify some truly terrible acts, and by moderates as an excuse for bigotry, intolerance and treating women like property. And in lieu of a big old book or two we now have many books, schools, a legal system, and all the other trappings which tell us how to be excellent to each other.

Religion still has positive benefits too of course, as others have said, but a lot of those benefits could easily be served by other means. Community centres, shared-interest clubs, heck even the local pubs are all places where people can meet, exchange opinions and knowledge, and be nice to each other. With the exception of the notion of providing comfort to the dying and grieving by lying to them, I’m struggling to think offhand of many modern-day benefits of religion which wouldn’t still work if you crossed out the ‘god’ bit.

Ie, as Douglas Adams once said, isn’t it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it?

I pointed out that they had made their mind up there is no God or Supreme being or deity, which they can’t possibly know, so they are as wrong as those who do.

Russell’s Teapot.

I identify as Atheist, not agnostic. You’re right that I can’t possibly know about a non-existence of a god or gods, as it’s conveniently impossible to prove a negative. However, in the face of no evidence whatsoever to suggest a deity and plenty of evidence to support the theories we currently have about the universe, I see no compelling reason to entertain the idea of a supernatural creator any more than that of the tooth fairy. I can’t disprove the tooth fairy, so are you seriously suggesting that the only “intelligent” standpoint here is to be tooth fairy agnostic?

You’d be right of course, as far as that logic holds water (or tea). But everyone old enough not to have milk teeth knows that the tooth fairy doesn’t exist, for all practical purposes.

And the thing all the theists always seem to overlook is, this is not a static belief. Atheism doesn’t imply a closed mind, it’s a current standpoint based on available information, and is open to change as new information and evidence comes to light. This is how science works, kids! I know that there isn’t a tooth fairy, however should my teeth suddenly start disappearing and I’m finding 50p pieces under my pillow with little notes saying “love and kisses, the tooth fairy” in a handwriting other than my partner’s, then I will of course revise my knowledge accordingly. Seems unlikely though, don’t you think?

Atheists not arrogant? That’s a new one, I must frame that.

You could do it like one of those motivational posters with a caption underneath. May I respectfully suggest, “irony”?

About to reply but can’t add much to what GrahamS said:

Do you believe in that cosmic teapot then? Or faeries at the bottom of your garden? Or those monsters that hide under your bed but turn invisible when you look for them with your torch? Or magical unicorns that can fart rainbows?

You can’t possibly know these things don’t exist either.

That doesn’t make it “arrogant” to “make up your mind” that the lack of evidence means you have no good reason to believe in them.

Not much there to argue with I’d have thought…?

I was just saying to someone the other day they should teach logic in schools. Some of the basic fails on this thread are reinforcing that opinion.

That doesn’t make it “arrogant” to “make up your mind” that the lack of evidence means you have no good reason to believe in them.

It’s not even that there’s no good reason to believe in them. It’s that it’s highly likely, given what we know about the world and the universe, that these things don’t exist. To attribute something a supernatural cause you wouldn’t just need a few scraps of evidence, you’d need something pretty damned compelling.

In my tooth fairy example above, if the situation I described did occur, who would actually think “wow, the tooth fairy is real after all!”? I’ve seen that David Blaine bloke walk on water and resurrect himself from the dead, if he claimed tomorrow to be the second coming would anyone believe him? Or would we see it with our own eyes and not be convinced, but yet happily believe it if it was written in a 1500 year old book?

You want to believe in a higher power, or have an “open mind,” or sit on the fence about the whole thing, you fill your boots. But don’t do that and then in the next breath tell me my logic is broken.

Some anger on this thread. The athiests need to find something.

Coffee and lunch, I fear.

just to arrogant to accept their might be a higher power than their own.

Always makes me smile this old Chestnut. Could it be more arrogant to imagine that (in your imagination) the most powerful entity in the universe cares what you do when you have no clothes on 🙂

From one wiser than me

“You believe in God, and another does not believe in God, so your beliefs separate you from each other. Belief throughout the world is organized as Hinduism, Buddhism, or Christianity, and so it divides man from man. We are confused, and we think that through belief we shall clear the confusion; that is, belief is superimposed on the confusion, and we hope that confusion will thereby be cleared away. But belief is merely an escape from the fact of confusion; it does not help us to face and to understand the fact but to run away from the confusion in which we are. To understand the confusion, belief is not necessary, and belief only acts as a screen between ourselves and our problems. So, religion, which is organized belief, becomes a means of escape from what is, from the fact of confusion. The man who believes in God, the man who believes in the hereafter, or who has any other form of belief, is escaping from the fact of what he is. Do you not know those who believe in God, who do puja, who repeat certain chants and words, and who in their daily life are dominating, cruel, ambitious, cheating, dishonest? Shall they find God? Are they really seeking God? Is God to be found through repetition of words, through belief? But such people believe in God, they worship God, they go to the temple every day, they do everything to avo id the fact of what they are and such people you consider respectable because they are yourself.”
J. Krishnamurti

Coffee and lunch, I fear.

Maybe the form of Jesus will appear in your coffee.

Really? Better make it tea, then.

If only there was somewhere I could get a teapot from.

The athiests need to find something.

Funny you should say that actually, I’ve just found something fishy. But as I’m filled with atheistic love for my fellow man (in a platonic non-touchy kind of way), I’ll deal with it after lunch.

I don’t believe in teapots.

If only there was somewhere I could get a teapot from.

Just believe in the teapot. Believe that it once existed and was typed and talked about for many hours.

I’m a little teapot…

Sorry, 2015, isn’t it.

#JeSuisUneThéière

hora – Member
If only there was somewhere I could get a teapot from.
Just believe in the teapot. Believe that it once existed and was typed and talked about for many hours.

I don’t know.. it might not be there, don’t they squeeze things from tubes on that space station?

Then again.

The other problem I could end up believing in the teapot, not be allowed to speak of coffee percolators and what about teas maids? Would they be second class citizens? Would it have to be a Yorkshire Tea Pot? And does it mean you as the prophet Hora who brought me the enlightenment, would I have to kill anyone who defames your character in future? What about the Unbelievers? Them as well?

So many questions.

Best not to know

hora – Member
Some anger on this thread. The athiests

I WONDER why that is?

Do I HAVE to post the article about the Saudis again?

Some things just make you bloody angry. Consequently I wasn’t feeling in a generous mood when a Jehovah’s Witless thrust a pamphlet at me with the title “What was the reason life began?” or somesuch and I just said, loudly, as I went past – “It evolved, you IDIOT”. Currently not in the mood for reasoned debate – I’ll leave that up to Cougar who seems to retain some patience with all that gibberish.

Mr Woppit – Member
Do I HAVE to post the article about the Saudis again?

Yes please … 😀

What is it about?

Consequently I wasn’t feeling in a generous mood when a Jehovah’s Witless thrust a pamphlet at me with the title “What was the reason life began?”

As long as she is a fit female she can thrust me as much as she likes …

Mr Woppit, I’m going to get a divine epithany and become a prophet of my own religion and lay my hands on you 😯

This covers it.

http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2007/10/atheists-and-an.html

Mr Woppit – Member

This covers it.

http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2007/10/atheists-and-an.html

I have no objection to her thoughts but why on earth does she need to post a pic of herself on her blog? Why is she so fixated with sex (her biography)? I sense a bureaucrat in her …

there’s a nice recently widowed pensioner on our street , in the winter I clear her steps and put salt down for her . her daughter caught me doing it this year and said “that’s very Christian of you” I pointed out she was agnostic and I was doing it because I felt we should all help each other when we can to which she said “I wish more people at my church felt like you.”

In truth it was a selfish act on my part when I am 80 i’ll need someone to do that sort of thing for me and I hope to reap what I sow.

I would suggest that given all the available evidence the only logical position to hold is atheism it requires faith to be a theist i.e. a conviction that goes beyond the evidence, and a form of doubt that there may be something more than the available evidence plus a suspicion that that “something” is a deity to be an agnostic.

Logic is based on sound propositions not faith or contingent suppositions.

“Why is she so fixated with sex (her biography)? I sense a bureaucrat in her” perhaps if you could read better you would see she is not a bureaucrat but a “sex writer” possibly that is why she mentions sex in terms of what she has done in life , a biography generally being the story of ones life.

OP….

I started out very much like yourself… nice people, lovely atmosphere, good to hear lots of “be excellent to each other” … but didn’t believe in God and wasn’t so keen on all the “confuse your sin” malarkee.

But I stuck with it because I couldn’t deny the fact, that deep down, I enjoyed being there, in church, even if I didn’t believe in God.

Ended up doing a confirmation course with the mind set of.. lets go and have a look and listen and ask some questions…. I don’t have to commit to anything at the end of it.

But I did get confirmed and was happy to do so … in fact I’m very glad I choose to be open minded about it all.

Give it a chance OP…. you’ve nowt to lose and lots to gain.

Hey, you may even find God isn’t a Beardie bloke on a cloud, a tooth fairy or indeed a tea pot

And far more importantly …. You will have looked for yourself.

Rather than wait for someone else or science to find him/her or royal doulton for you.

Enjoy

I struggle with the concept…some geezer, in the sky, looking after us all, must be lovely if your trying to dodge reality (or maybe scare folk) but c’mon really?

you may as well believe in a God or a dolphin or whatever.

I’m no Marine Biologist, but I’m pretty sure I believe in Dolphins.

Well said Ro5ey 8)

Personally speaking, after my own curiosity and searching, religion isn’t part of my faith. Yet I cherish my faith.

Allah

I tried to find Him on the Christian cross, but He
was not there; I went to the Temple of the
Hindus and to the old pagodas, but I could not
find a trace of Him anywhere.

I searched on the mountains and in the valleys
but neither in the heights nor in the depths was I
able to find Him. I went to the Ka’bah in Mecca,
but He was not there either.

I questioned the scholars and philosophers but
He was beyond their understanding.

I then looked into my heart and it was there
where He dwelled that I saw Him; He was
nowhere else to be found.

The most beautiful poetry in the world.