516 EOJ
6301 E
GVT 622D
MKO 189F
GOL 530L
HRO 520Y
D622 ???
L660 GBF
R402 AEY
EA51 XBN
YH57 YVB

Daffy, is that second shot Weston Shore? Looks very much like it!

Morris Minor
Triumph Herald 13/60 estate
Ford Escort MK Ii
Ford Fiesta
Toyota Rav 4
Peugeot 106 GTI
VW Golf
Lexus IS200 SE
BMW 318 coupe
Audi A4 saloon
BMW 330D saloon
Audi A4 Avant
BMW M3 (lunatic fast)
BMW 330D coupe

Fairly interesting OP, then the predictable list of bland euro boxes

Ford escort 1.3 -written off by a granny
Ford Focus Zetec 1.6 estate – replaced by a diesel
Ford Focus zetec estate 1.8tdi – sold to fund final year of uni
Vauxhal corsa 1.4 auto – rubbish car but only cost £100. Blew up on the motorway after 20000 miles with no servicing
Ford Mondeo Zetec Estate – first car out of uni, replaced by company car
Various company cars
Rover 200 1.1 bought as a stop gap for either side of travelling when I have my company car back
Bmw 116i msport – my first nice car bought 6 months old replaced by
Bmw m135i – written off by a new driver in his second month of driving – poor bloke
Transporter t5.1 swb – sold
Bmw 120d msport coupe – sold
Porsche Cayman GTS
Porsche Macan – on order due to the two year wait

All in 11 years of driving!

chronologically..

then
First decent car

Something borrowed

The ugliest and most reliable car ever

maxtorque to the thread please!

Mine is most unspectacular. Only 2 of the following had electic windows and none have had aircon.
1982 mg metro
1990 clio 1.2
2004 mini one (lease car not really mine)
1994 fiesta 1.25 ghia (zetec engine, velour, pretend walnut, beigey grey leather steering wheel, it was ace!)
1998 t4 caravelle

Started off with a Suzuki AP50 at 16 which I ran for 8 months until the MOT ran out.
There was a ten year gap until I got my first car: a Ford Fiasco 1.1. Tracking was off so used to wobble in excess of 65mph so never went above that. I have fond memories of this car, I suppose you always remember your first…
Sold it when I got my first company car, a 1.3 Escort. Definitely the worst car I’ve ever had.
Changed jobs, got A Fiat Bravo (1,2 I think). Completely gutless but I didn’t know any different, so I actually really liked it.
Changed jobs again, had to buy a car. This time a Golf turbo diesel (no i). Awful, noisey, drove like shit.
Got rid of it for a much more refined Skoda Octavia (90bhp). Great, smooth, quiet, economical car with heaps of space. I could even hear the tape player at 70 mph!
Traded it in for my mid life crisis car, and my only car bought new, a petrol Mk 1 Octavia VRS Estate. Definitely the nicest car I’ve had. But it made me drive like a **** so it had to go. Swapped for older 1.9 100bhp Golf Estate. Not nearly as nice but much, much more practical. This was the car I’ve held on to the longest. Can’t say I liked it but we bonded and ignored each other’s faults…
When I had the golf I also had a Fabia Estate (6 months) and a Seat Leon 1.9 140bhp (2 years) as company cars. The Fabia I liked as super practical. The Leon I never did learn how long it was. Didn’t miss it when it went!
Sold the Golf as it had 110k on it and I’ve had a 105 bhp 1.9 Octavia for the last 3.5 years. Fancy a change but nothing wrong with the present (except bigger than I need see days) and hankering after a different bike.
Passed my motorbike licence last year and got a Suzuki DL650 V-strom. Brilliant first proper bike, learnt loads on it but hanker after someone different. It feels a bit like my Golf estate though, not the most exciting but struggle to justify changing it.

Ok there have been too many to list so I’ll do first and current…

First- I passed my test in this- 10 lessons in 3 weeks in the dark evenings of winter:

and my current:

Note the Lewis Hamilton winning sticker- its been on every car since he last won 😀

Keep ’em coming folks, pics please…I N R A T S!

Mk3 1.3 Fiesta – sold
Austin Metro City with MG interior – stolen after 6 weeks
Another Mk3 1.3 Fiesta – broke an engine mount
Then this – which went to the big rust graveyard in the sky

Then a big gap until…..

Bodykit optional 😀

Then a Toyota Avensis T180 which was fast but incredibly dull and incredibly thirsty.

Now this

Fiesta 950 popular plus (one wing mirror, four gears and only car caught speeding in)
Citroen AX diesel
Fiat Bravo
Posh Fiesta Ghia
Puma
Mini One convertible
Nissan Muarano
Mini Cooper S convertible
VW Touareg

Car I enjoyed the most: Puma
Car I hated the most: Cooper S covertible. Leaked like a sieve as had bought a lemon. Thankfully garage took it back 10 days later.

Hm. Not sure can do pics.
This since 1985. So 30 odd years of motoring..

Citroen GSA (lovely)
Citroen BX (pile of cack, had been my dad’s)
Peugeot 205 GTI 1.6
Peugeot 205 GTI 1.9 (lovely, stolen)
Golf Mk II GTI (sold on at 115k miles)
Saab 900S (great car, written off at 108k, should have seen the other car, a Fiesta..)
Saab 900S (newer type, eventually failed MOT after c. 113k miles)
now Skoda Octavia estate, not that involving but nice enough..

A few fellow Puma fans/owners. Heres my old £900 1.7 Puma. Its oil had been done properly too as it was bloody good

Note the bad parking 8)

No car I’ve ever owned has been worthy of a picture.

Bought a Fiat 500 with my old man when I was about 9 for a few hundred quid and learned to drive in it. Later we fully restored it when I was about 19, full nut and bolt job but moved house so unfortunately had to sell it… we’ve since bought another one with a mint shell and currently collecting all the go faster bits ready for the rebuild. Photo is of the 2nd car we bought thats currently awaiting resto to begin…

At 17 bought a Pug 106 to pass my test as a cheap way of getting some no claims and being able to insure a proper car. Less said the better!

As soon as insurance was affordable I bought an Alfa 145, great little van of a car. Bikes in the back, sorted the suspension out plus a few other bits it was like a little go cart! Loved that little ugly thing.

Next was a bit of an on going project thats still with me today. Currently the only 4×4 converted Fiat Coupe on the road in the UK I think, running engine and drive train from a Lancia Integale instead of the usual fwd setup.

Then had a VW Caddy for a while to keep me on the road whist working on the Fiat. This was hilarious, most attention I’ve ever had in a car – not sure if thats a good or bad thing! Stupidly low but fun.

Then that grew into a Ford Ranger, mega workhorse, only car I’ve ever made money on and bizarrely had the best service history of any car I’ve owned.

Next I went back to Alfa and bought a 156 2.4 wagon which was a great car. Got through tyres at an alarming rate and ate front suspension for fun. Got put through a flood, dried out and lived on for another 2 years.

When that died I did the standard thing and bought a Skoda Octavia petrol VRS, goes well enough though bit dull but super practical for the bikes/dogs etc.

Also currently have this pulling horses around and general utility stuff, surprisingly useless for bikes though!

Fiat Strada 65cl
MGB GT
Marina van
205
Mercedes 280e (great old barge but drank petrol)
Fiat Uno
Astra
VW Passat (heap of sh**e)
Honda Civic
Honda Shuttle
Toyota Verso
Vauxhall combo van

From the shuttle onwards they’ve all been chosen for bike carrying ability above all else at the Mrs’s insistance.

Bikes;
Kmx 200
Guzzi v50
Cbr 400
r100gs (was a mistake to sell this)
Firestorm
R1100rs
Varedro 1000
Bonneville 800
Mz 250(was a mistake to buy this)
kawasaki gt550
1968 bsa bantam
honda c90

Still got the last three on the list but feel like hacking in the gt550 for a different commuter, trouble is bikes seem expensive now and it’s only got 26k on the clock

Bit of a mix:

1989 – Renault 14
1995 – Nissan Micra
2000 – Ford Puma
2011 – Skoda Roomster

1999 – VW Golf mk2
2004? -VW Golf mk4
2010 – VW T5

Exciting, eh.

Hmmm, I have an equally functional dull list:

Megane. Great first car – could fit 4 in + climbing and camping kit and did climbing trips all over the uk and Europe. Rarely went wrong.

Civic. Not much went wrong with this either, but you had to drive the nuts off it to get anywhere near the speed of the megane. Small boot though.

VW T5 Kombi. Correct sized boot 🙂

All at least 2nd hand

Wolseley 1500,ended upside down on Loch Lomondside
Wartburg Knight, swapped for
63 Beetle, turned into Baja Bug
Hillman Hunter
Mk1 Cortina
Datsun 180B
Austin Princess
Volvo 340 yuck
Granada Mk1 2.3 V6,15mpg
Escort Mk 3 1.3
Sierra 1.8 Ghia estate
Talbot camper
Fiat Marea Weekend

From new

Peugeot 406 Estate
Senic 1.5dci
06 Clio 1.4
Suzuki SX4 x 2
Focus Sport 1.6 TDCI

First car, shared with my sister. Hand-Painted(badly) in light brown paint “sourced” form my dad’s work at an opencast pit.

Great car. Yellow Peril lasted forever!

This one wasn’t as good but it was a van…

First new car. Ordered blue – this is chagall blue. Which is clearly purple. Hated it.

Replaced with one of these – brilliant wee car!

Then the nadir. Absolutely hated the BMW from the moment I owned it. Great to drive with all sorts of hitherto unknown mod-cons. But other road users treated me like dirt. A bit like cycling on the road I suppose…

Then one of these – wife still has it…

Back to a van at the same time…brilliant motor!

And finally one very like this, which I’m keeping until it dies…

Excluding company cars

1980 Mini 1275 GT – sold
1983 Astra 1.6SR – sold
1998 Rover 820 – died
1987 Cavalier 1.6 – died
1988 Sierra 2.0GLS – sold
1988 Audi 100 Avant – sold
1990 Saab 9000i – sold
1990 Discovery – sold
1993 Espace V6 – sold
1990 205 1.6GTI – sold
1993 Discovery – sold
1996 306 TD – the ex killed it
1998 406 2.0 – the ex killed it, then she became the ex
2007 C3 – leased
2008 C2 VTS – leased
2009 C3 – leased
2010 C4 – leased
2011 C4 – leased
2012 DS4 – leased
2004 Saab 9-5 Aero – sold
2005 Saab 9-3 Convertible – Still got
2005 BMW 645ci – Killed in the only car accident I’ve been in
2005 CL55 AMG Still got
2003 Jeep Grand Cherokee – Still got

Company cars

1996 Micra
1998 Saxo
1998-2000 various Saab pool cars
2002 Saab 9-3
2003 C3
2004 C3
2005 C4
2006 C4
2007 C4
2008 C5
2009 C5
2010 C5
2011 DS3
2012 DS3

I think that’s it!

EDIT

1963 MG B Roadster – Sold

I’ve only ever owned four cars, the one I drive now is on loan from my parents.

1992 – 1997 – boxy, bouncy and no brake servo

1997-2002 – a hoot to drive and surprisingly cheap to run

2003-2007 (in red) – six cylinders = great noise + drink problem

2007-Present – well screwed together, but expensive to run.

Present…no apologies for this, you can fit two FS bikes in the back and it sips diesel.

No Pics I’m afraid, but this is my list – starting in 1990:-

– Talbot Samba 1.4 Rallye
– Peugeot 405 1.9
– Peugeot 306 2.0
– MGF 1.8
– Lotus Elise 1.8 – loved it
– TVR Cerbera 4.2 – loved it
– Fiat Coupe 20V turbo – terrible car
– Caterham 7 – Still got this one 15 years later
– Honda S2000 – loved it
– Audi S3 – Hated this one
– BMW E92 M3 – loved it
– BMW M135i – loving it

Out of interest why did you hate the Fiat? I’ve never driven a standard fwd car so quite interested to hear your thoughts.

I can imagine coming off the back of a the handling of the Elise and v8 of the TVR it’d be a bit of a let down!

A fairly short history for me (28 yrs old)

1991 VW Mk2 Golf GTI 8V – Bought as a non-runner project with my brother at 16, got to 17, couldnt afford to insure it, sold
1996 Mk3 1.1 Fiesta – First ‘proper’ car, how dull, knackered after one year, catastrophically failed MOT, swapped for a paddock stand
2001 Mk1 Skoda Fabia 1.9SDI Classic – too slow, sold after a month
2001 Mk1 Skoda Fabia 1.4MPI Classic – 35k miles in one yr, bulletproof
2004 Mk1 Skoda Fabia 1.9PD VRS – First proper job, treated myself, then stolen 🙁 still sadly missed
2006 Fiat Grande Punto Sporting Multijet 1.9 Diesel – Lovely car but annoying EGR valve, many visits to garage, fix it again tony….
2008 Mk2 Skoda Fabia 1.9PD 3 Estate – Got a dog, needed bigger car, got this, 5 years and 120k miles, great car
2007 Vauxhall Vivaro Custom Campervan – Current, great times
2013 Mk3 Skoda Octavia 2.0TDI Elegance Estate – Current, lovely car

First car: Panda 4×4 like this, but that nice beigey, greeny, browny colour and more rusty. Possibly still my best car.

Second car: Golf GTi, like this but silver and more rusty. Lovely car to drive.

Third car: Vauxhall Omega MV6. Surprisingly, this actual car. Awesome to drive.

Fourth car: Rover 620 SLDi. Like this, but gunmetal grey. The shittest car I have ever owned.

Fifth car: VW Polo Coupe. A car.

Sixth car: Vauxhall Frontera DTi. My first car with full leather interior. It eventually dissolved.

Seventh car: VW Passat Estate. Mmmmm. Reliable.

First van: VW Transporter T5

Out of interest why did you hate the Fiat? I’ve never driven a standard fwd car so quite interested to hear your thoughts

Well, the brakes, despite looking like they meant business were wooden and had little stopping power.

The suspension just allowed the body to roll far too much, and the torque steer was terrible. Having said that it was fast in a straight line.

I’m generally not a fan of front wheel drive or turbo charged engines either, so it was probably a poor choice from the outset.

Can’t believe how many cars some people have owned! Amazing.

Somewhat shamefully, I’ve had my licence for 18years, but didn’t get my first car until about 14 years ago and have only owned two (fairly boring cars) in total…

First was a Fiesta Si (not my pic)….
Considered the 1.6, but ended up with the 1.4 due to insurance costs. Stuck loads of miles on it, before getting rid as it was rusting badly…

replaced it with a Seat Ibiza 1.9 TDi 130 in Sept 2006 and still got it. Put 224000 miles on it so far (got it with 24k miles on it) and it’s still going strong-ish.
My black and white pic to hide the fact that the paint work needs some serious TLC….

I really should buy something a bit more interesting! Almost bought a Racing Puma when I got the Ibiza, but the fuel costs of a 100 mile commute would have been too much.

My car history is astonishingly short and very boring.
Passed test in 1998 and used my moms 1.2 Corsa on and off whist at uni.
Left uni and got a Ford KA in about 2002, it was bloody brilliant. Simple to drive and to fix, very nippy and the best handling car in the snow I have ever driven. I bloody loved that car and only sold it as it got to £100k miles and started to need some costly repairs. If I could find another one in good nick for cheap I’d buy one tomorrow.
Next up was a Renault Megane 1.5d. I had a love/hate relationship with this car as it needed £1k of electrical work doing within 18 months of owning it and continued it have a variety of electrical problems over my ownership. However, it did do £160k miles in the end with relatively few problems in the end.

And that is it, as of 2 months ago in am car free. Very enjoyable.

I’ve had the pleasure of driving various other cars over the year through friends and but is is my very pathetic personal history.

Renault 12, good. Bought off dad, killed in a field by rolling it over to many times.
Ford Escort, 1st gen, good. Once driven home with only two cylinders working, It lived to the tale though.
Audi 80,1st gen, weird steering but looked nice. killed by it not going around a corner when i turned the wheel..
Renault 12 again. good. lemon paintwork! Another car killed it by hitting it very hard.
Renault 12 again, estate though, good practical car.
Alfa romeo alfasud. Great car. Had to drive around puddles though because of the holes in the floor..
Fiat Uno, good.
Fiat Uno Turbo. Great car. Rapid, fun, even felt well built! sprog on way, had to go.
Fiat Tipo. Pile of crap.
Renault 21 turbo. Loved that car, it was mint.
Ford Fiesta., 3rd gen. A dud.
Renault Scenic, 1st gen. Great car, wife’s favorite.
Citroen Berlingo, great car, most mtb friendly car ever?
Citroen Berlingo, nuff said.
BMW 1, 1st gen. Good car, respected rather than loved.
Skoda Yeti, very nice motor. Tiny turbo engine had to be fed to often though.
Porsche Boxer, bit mad really. That one emptied my pockets and kicked me in the nuts on the way out.
Mazda 3, good car. very relaxing, nice sound system.

Bought my first car in 1989 (25 years ago – YIKES!), so a few of these were quite old when I got them. I’m largely happy with my list, though:

1974 Triumph Spitfire Mk IV
1978 Triumph Dolomite 1850HL
1971 Alfa Spider 1750
1983 Alfasud 105ti
1974 Mg Midget
1988 Alfa 33 Sportwagon 1.7
1985 Golf GTi Mk2 (8v)
1976 Alfa GT Junior
1989 Toyota Corolla GTi-16
1998 MX5 1.8i
1985 Toyota MR2 Mk1a
1989 Saab 9000 CSE 2.3
1985 Toyota MR2 Mk1a
1989 BMW 325i Touring
2002 MX5 1.8 Sport
2002 Peugeot 106 Independence
1994 MX5 1.8iS
1989 Toyota MR2 Mk1b
1988 BMW 325i Touring
2001 Peugeot 106 Independence
1998 BMW 325tdi Touring
2009 Skoda Fabia 1.4TDi Estate
1994 MX5 1.8i

I seem to be getting increasingly sucked into some kind of automotive Groundhog Day (and worryingly, there are a few on the list which I would quite happily revisit yet again)!

fiesta 1.1
escort 1.6
escort 1.4
ka 1.3
puma 1.7
focus 1.8d

suzuki gp100
suzuki gs400
beamish suzuki rl250
suzuki gs550
suzuki ts100
fantic 240
honda xl250
kawasaki gpz550
honda cbr600
bmw 1150gs
yamaha ty175
montesa 315r
bmw 1200gs

A sad progression from young, fun, dangerous and sporty to staid, middle aged, safe and boring. (example pics)

Kart, lasted 8 weeks

SR model, did the ton (just) Rolled like a 2CV on corners.

Fugly duckling and a death trap. Stupidly fast with twin carbs on modified cooper s engine, weighed nothing, drum brakes. Minivan fuel tank 2″ from rear end, Three branch manifold with single cherry bomb silencer scraping the ground.

Safer than a Mini Marcos!

Quick, practical kit car, good handling and cheap to insure.

A hoot.

Another hoot.

Impressive comfort and braking from clever hydraulics.

Better than it looked.

Efficient, beautifully finished

Utterly dull, an appliance, had it for years.

1985 Polo 1.0. Leaded petrol only!
1993 Punto. Rear light cluster multi plug held in place by a folded cornflake packet.
2000 Rover 214is.
Then came company cars.
Almera 1.5 SE
Micra 1.2 Sport
Micra 1.2 SE
Almera 1.5 Flare
Almera Tino SE
Primera 2.2 dCi
Golf 1.4 S
Golf 1.6 SE
Golf 1.6 SE Auto
Bora 1.9TDI Highline
Passat 1.9 TDI Highline
Golf Plus 1.9 TDI Sport
Civic 1.8 EX
CR-V Sport
CR-V ES
Accord Sport Tourer
CR-V SE Auto
Land Rover Discovery
BMW 325i SE
325d M Sport Saloon
130i Hatch (the best of the lot)
330i Coupe
Z4 2.0i
Mini Clubman D (new co.car tax rules 🙁 )
Cooper S
Cooper S
Cooper S Clubman
Cooper S
Toyota Rav 4
Auris
Avensis
BMW 118d Convertible
118i Convertible
Audi A5 2.0TDI Sportback
A5 2.0TFSI Sportback
A4 1.8TFSI Avant Black Ed.
Q3 2.0TFSI SE
A6 Avant S Line
A6 Avant S Line
A6 Avant Black Ed.
A5 Sportback Black Ed.
320ed Touring
320d Touring M Sport Plus

Another 3 series on order.

Monkeychild my mum and dad had an identical Nissan Cherry – exact same colour and exact model! On a plate though in 1986 I think. First brand new car they had.

Frist Car was a Sirocco GTi 1.8, I bought it before I passed my test as way of motivation, begged my parents, mates and anyone else to give me lessons in it – finally parked it up in the community centre car park 200m from my house and they had it towed and crushed inside of 48 hours! It was even taxed! “looked abandoned” apparently – Police not remotely interested in someone having someone else cars destroyed – small village, small minds.

Anyway, passed my test and with insurance rates being through the roof and being a inexperienced driver I sensibly bought a modified MK2 Golf GTi 16v and tried to kill myself in it, managed 18 months without so much as a mark on me or it, considering the amount of time it spent sliding or spinning it was nothing short of miraculous – sold it on and the nest owner crashed it about a week later and wrote it off.

Seeing as I was now a driving God and seemingly immortal I upped my game an bought an extremely ropy MK3 Golf VR6“cheapest on Autotrader” which should have been a bad sign, which I took to be good – spent £2k on it, spent another £2k making it road worthy… it repaid my love by catching fire at 80mph – and not in a sort of “ooo I see smoke” type way, no in a “fuuuuuuuck me flame are shooting from behind the dash, and I’m doing 80mph on the motorway” type of thing – burnt to the ground – but apart from being a bit shaken up, my immortality remained untouched.

You know when you’re really young and you buy ‘Third Party Fire & Theft’ insurance to save some money? – well you can buy ‘third party only’ insurance too – not much good if your £2k car you paid £4k for burns…

So with no money I bought a even ropier Mk2 MR2 GTI oh this was a peach, it was a rebuild Cat C write off, MR2s are many things, but simple they are not – but it was okay because the guys who rebuilt it had a body shop – so the paint was faultless and the panels straight – but it was a total basket case – they bought a “turbo look” engine bay cover which did indeed look like the one they fitted to the Turbo model, but sadly let rain water get all over the engine, which meant that it run like crap when damp and worse made the complicated variable intake manifold jam shut – they put out about 160-175bhp depending on the year at about 7200rpm, but at 4000rpm they couldn’t pull a greased stick out of a dogs arse. Sold it on again for half what I paid for it.

At this point my folks too pity on my and being as they were emigrating they gave me the use of their car a 2 year old Passat V6 Tdi SE, that my Dad paid £30k for new – it was brilliant, if a bit boring, but very comfortable – it was odd in that it made no sense ‘on paper’ for a diesel it wasn’t very economical – mid-30’s in normal use, and for a V6 it wasn’t very fast, it only had 150bhp which isn’t much more than the usual 4 pot versions, but it drove really well.

Had it for 8 years.

After that, I settled down with my (as now) Wife and took a job 30 miles from home, problem being that when my Folks came home to visit – 4 weeks at a time, they wanted “my” car back, so I had to buy my own (which has always gone sooooo well before) so I bought a Honda Accord Estate Diesel which was brilliant(ish) it was massive – took my Shocker in whole, both wheels on – massive comfy leather chairs (too big to be mere seats) sat-nav (didn’t really work) even more boring and slow than the Passat and not much more frugal – of course at that point I decided to go online and see what was what with them – I assumed, being Jap they’ve been completely reliable – no, early ones suffered from – cracked exhaust manifold (£700+ VAT to fix) water ingress in the headlamps which cause them to fail (£300 + VAT to fix) and the fancy electric boot doors can go wrong BUT MINE DIDN’T! No, because it had broken before I owned it and the previous owner had ‘fixed’ it – he did this by re-wiring everything, very badly – within a few months it would simple lock me in and set off the alarm – £500 to fix, I say fix after 3 attempts at 3 garages it was never really fixed.

Then some **** stole my new Lapierre Spicy 516 from our uninsured shed, heart-breaking – with all our savings gone on our impending wedding and 2.5 years left to run on the HP for the Spicy and the Honda on the blink again I decided to sell the Honda, spend half on a bike and half on a Mondeo – cheap motoring, every says so.

I hated that car, it never broke down, but the exhaust fell off, the suspension broke continuously, it ate through brakes, it smoked terribly and it was just horrible to drive, be driven in, be close to or even think about so 12 months ago I MOT’d it (£600) and sold it for £1200, £100 more than I paid for it.

I’ve given up buying cars now (I don’t have much luck) and have taken a Company Car, a brilliant Seat Exeo estate, it’s got loads of toys, does loads of MPG and has never once, gone wrong in even the tinniest way and if it does – it’s not my problem – I love it.

I also owned a Honda CBR600 F4i at one point, it was amazing, but my immortality seemed to be running out so I got rid.