hi all,

just thought i'd pass on a wee bit of info a got a week ago.

I was up carron valley, and I spoke to a forrestry man who was there about it, he says he is hoping to get another 10km of downhill red sorted out for it, with some sponsorship help from the wind turbine company.

I had wee moan about aberfoyle/loch ard area not having a setup like glentress and he said "watch this space", he said that there are plans afoot for 3 big trail centers in Scotland:

1) laggan
2) glentress (well durr)
3) cv or aberfoyle

its all to do with funding, and due to our toxic debt might be tricky….
I asked how much these trails cost, he said the runway track at cv which can't be more than 2-3km, cost £24,000 to get rebuilt, and that was on the cheap.

Anyway, thought it might be of interest.

Cheers

The forrestry dont half talk pish

I'm not sure about the new builds down at Glentress I think all these new shiny buildings will take away from some of the atmosphere

I like sitting on the decking outside the hub on a old broken chair

Not that I live locally but I rode CV last month and enjoyed muchly, so anymore would be good.

But isn't there a rumour that the Con-Dem Nation are hoping to sell off Forestry Commission to make £70m. I hope not, but that's what I heard.

I don't believe it…not for one minute.

Be nice if it was true, but the Forrestry Commission are now totally risk averse and seem to be totally against any cycle activity, let alone building new trail centres that won't pay for themselves.

Those costs you mentioned are way out. A recent estimate I think was about £20k for 400m

Unbelievable – quite literally…

If this happens it will be the biggest volte-face in the history of Scottish mountain biking

£20k, £24k, £240k – all pales into insignificance when you consider the Peel alone is currently running @ a staggering £8m

£8M. 😯
I have no doubt that GT will offer a very high standard of visitors centre but it does seem excessive. Think of the miles of trails that could have been built, through out scotland, for the cost.

What they've done at CV so far is good (The Runway is great fun) so it'd be nice to see some more investment there as it needs perhaps twice the length of trail that it has now.

Be grateful you have such a widespread selection of trailcentres north of the border.
Theres **** all on the south coast, nearest being Swinley (i think). I wouldnt mind, but i moved south 14 years ago and all the 7stanes ete sprung up after i moved. bah!

Would love that to be true, but I'd be very very very (is that enough very's yet) surprised if there's anything more to it than wishful thinking on the FCS persons part. Don't suppose you know who it was you were speaking to?

There is a charity called Rebound trying to get some things started North of Glasgow. Good luck to them.
Article from back in Jan here.

Whats happening at GT seems similar to Afan Forest. But what they did there was criminal when you see the investment the local community could do with, nevermind building more trails. I guess its a case of money being avaliable for specific projects and if it didn't get spent on a fancy visitor centre/cafe/shop then it would be spent on a similar project elsewhere.

The GT development is not to serve mountainbike users only (personally I agree with enduro-aid and feel it will completely ruin the atmosphere) but is intended to serve "tourist" activity in the Borders. "Please remove your dirty boots before entering"?

Let's hope we don't get a chain moving in to the cafe, no doubt rental will go sky high.

Heather Bash – Member

"Unbelievable – quite literally…

If this happens it will be the biggest volte-face in the history of Scottish mountain biking"

That's pretty much exactly what everyone here would have said if someone had posted last year "I hear the FC have hired Pete Laing to totally rebuild and resurface the Runway at Carron Valley" The FC's basically a headless chicken so you should never be too surprised with whatever it does next.

Well wouldn't that be awesome.

Presumably the new foresty minister (but still SNP) has changed position since Michael Russell MSP said this:
…we have no plans, nor are we able, to create more world-class facilities in Scotland…
Source: Sunday Herald

Should have asked the optimistic ranger why the lochside trail still isn't waymarked more than a year after having being completed…

This would be tremendous news if true, but previous statements form the FC indicated that there would be nothing new. CV has improved greatly in the last wee while, something I never thought would happen after the fiasco of CVDG v FC.

As for Aberfoyle, I'd prefer to see it a little more central, ie Whitelee forest – 15-20 mins down the M77 from Glasgow or maybe Muirshiel country park (Huge area of land between Lochwinnoch and Greenock).

If this is true, it is something which should have tied in with the Commonwealth games, instead of holding the event at the doggers paradise that is Cathkin braes.

Good lord – I'm loving the "what have the FC ever done for us" undertow to a few of these posts.

J0N – Member
£8M.
I have no doubt that GT will offer a very high standard of visitors centre but it does seem excessive. Think of the miles of trails that could have been built, through out scotland, for the cost.

Yeah – just think of what damage they could have done.

Unfortunately this will be something about nothing.

Apropos the Runway: CVDG put a report in the public domain which left FCS exposed. And…. the trail needed some maintenance anyway. So, two options:

1. Shut the trail down = public outrage
2. Do the work and take the kudos.

They wisely opted for 2. So far, so good…

Whitelees: not going to happen. Used as an excuse for not developing CV about 3 or 4 years ago. Too near to GT, never on the development radar – its time has been and gone.

Muirsheil: that's down to the Cooncil I guess so a big NO under the current climate.

Cathkin Braes: also used as an excuse not to develop cv so who knows what will happen post Commy Games. Deserves to flourish due to proximity to large population (in tandem with CV) but no local champions AFAIK and competes with GT for Glasgow punters so, absolutely bugger all would be my prediction.

Aberfoyle = teachers pet but it really isn't close enough – it has precisely the same accesssibility issues that GT has. They'll do it though if they ever get the money – far easier then dealing with inner city types with no £disposable.

The Peel = FCS advised by consultants they needed a "world class facility" Clearly a building is judged the embodiment of such…

In terms of this thread: it's either complete bollocks or some well intentioned forester is trying to fly something under the radar – in which case its already doomed to failure. FCS stick to this site like flies to a sh1te so whatever positive ideas were in this guys head when he spoke they are probably getting nuked as we type ;-(

>Good lord – I'm loving the "what have the FC ever done for us" undertow to a few of these posts<

Oops, I am sorry but last time I checked FC weren't a registered charity.

Druidh – the Peel may or may not have been justified but the project was silently fast tracked under the radar at a time when FCS was supposed to be conducting a strategic review of its mtb facilities in Scotland

Hope they spend some of the money on the road leading to CV, and the bridge as you enter the car park . Its trully shit

How long have they been building the new visitor centre at GT? It seems like a good couple of years and unless the inside is going to rival the Sistine chapel, they're having a laugh. Nothing takes this long to build!

Hmmmmm, this is very surprising as at an FC meeting last week it was pointed out there is no money for any new trail and neither are they planning any "red" anywhere. Their policy is to only maintain, or if really necessary, only modify/upgrade what they've already got. The days of mile upon mile of new trail are over.

Hope they spend some of the money on the road leading to CV, and the bridge as you enter the car park . Its trully shit

And getting worse, my cars front suspension hates me for that road, and I hate that road for leading me to something so average but hey, its local.

I stand corrected – Peel was running at £9m end of 2009. I'd be expecting a real fancy ceiling for that 😉

>there is no money for any new trail and neither are they planning any "red" anywhere.<

Not directly on FC land but clearly they are helping fund it elsewhere:

http://www.ckdgalbraith.co.uk/seb-coe-visits-lews-castle-grounds-to-endorse-new-cycle-trails-and-designed-landscape-restoration-project

If you have a couple of years to waste you could always try a FO! – sorry FOI request re agenda item 7:

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/FESMB15APRIL10.pdf/$FILE/FESMB15APRIL10.pdf

surely in relation to the PEEL project at GT, the hub should be getting the cafe and retail space?? maybe work out a deal for cheap rent for all the years they have invested in the area

Lets face it any other business that looks at mountain bikers as potiental customers moving in there will fail, I know that I will always use the hub for coffee and cake and any spares i need when visting GT even if there is a new shiney shop and cafe on the other side

<Oops, I am sorry but last time I checked FC weren't a registered charity. >

If anyone said that it was, it wasn't me. But then, I don't think mountain bikers are a registered charity either.

I hardly want a trail centres vers natural trails debate, but if you like the hills au naturel (and I do) then you can hardly argue that the FC has narrowed your options.

And if you like way-marked trails, graded routes, all-weather surfaces, skills areas, proper downhill tracks, freeride, car parking, refreshments and bike supplies on site – then the FC has transformed mountain biking in Scotland.

What's more, when they started serious trail building, IIRC, there were no charges at all. And now it's what? £3 per car – IF you turn up by car. Less than the price of a glossy magazine then.

Not that it's above scrutiny, but it seems to me that there are dozens of posts about how the FC is getting this wrong, or that wrong, for every serious discussion about how the programme of trail building and maintenance should be made financially sustainable.

So, is it the consensus that riding our bikes in the woods is such a worthy charity that it should all just happen for us?

>Not that it's above scrutiny<

Err yes, that was my point.

>but it seems to me that there are dozens of posts about how the FC is getting this wrong, or that wrong, for every serious discussion about how the programme of trail building and maintenance should be made financially sustainable.<

So, for example, we shouldn't question if £9m and counting on a building for one location is "financially sustainable?" These are very large sums of money – you might be able to point me to where and how that particular strategic decsion was arrived at?

Are you worried that they started the building work without having the funding secured? Or just that they decided to build without consulting you?

I'm not by any means a trail centre regular, but I do think that the FC has shown pretty impressive vision and enterprise in the last 10 years or so.

If they've got a budget and a case to invest in bricks and mortar facilities at GT, then I'm not that eager to argue the point with them. They took a pretty bold punt on GT which seems to have paid off in spades, even whilst some folk complain that it's "so average".

You could spread the budget more evenly across the other trail centres and build some more trail mileage. Which might just yield a marginal increase in car parking revenue. Or it might not…

…£9m and counting…

I'm sorry, I missed the bit where you outlined your evidence for the expanding costs?

surely in relation to the PEEL project at GT, the hub should be getting the cafe and retail space?? maybe work out a deal for cheap rent for all the years they have invested in the area

+1 The cafe and bike shop are already great facilities and I personally won't be abondoning them

Lets face it any other business that looks at mountain bikers as potiental customers moving in there will fail, I know that I will always use the hub for coffee and cake and any spares i need when visting GT even if there is a new shiney shop and cafe on the other side

You would like to think so but I'm convinced there a plenty of poseurs at GT who only turn up to show of their Lapierres and hang around the cafe, shiny shops and Starbuck would undoubtedly appeal to this demographic!

well rich i aint one of them, i still ride my now 5/6 year old enduro

its gets more looks at the cafe than any of your lapierre lambo-carbon 3001 bikes haha

richmtb (bit of a thread hijack) – been working with your wife last week and yesterday out in West Lothian (she works for URS, right?) She told me her husband (i.e. you) mountainbiked and we were talking about 10 @ Kirroughtree and telling her how I got on, and she mentioned STW to me!

Thoroughly nice lady, and if you guys are through Edinburgh way for biking, give me a shout!

Kit

richmtb (bit of a thread hijack) – been working with your wife last week and yesterday out in West Lothian (she works for URS, right?) She told me her husband (i.e. you) mountainbiked and we were talking about 10 @ Kirroughtree and telling her how I got on, and she mentioned STW to me!

Thoroughly nice lady, and if you guys are through Edinburgh way for biking, give me a shout!

Kit

Thanks Kit, yeah that will be her she is back over there on site today

So how did you get on?

If you are going to GT any weekend then PM me and let me know, will be in Romania for the next fortnight though

As a pair we did 4 laps each in incredibly wet conditions, which put us 31st out of 111. Soloists 'only' topped out at 9 so we were pretty pleased.

Can you drop me an email – I didn't see one in your profile? I'll be in touch. Have fun seeing the in-laws 🙂

>Are you worried that they started the building work without having the funding secured? Or just that they decided to build without consulting you?<

Neither – please re read my comments directed to Druidh.

Kit – agenda item 10:

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/FESMB20October2009.pdf/$FILE/FESMB20October2009.pdf

I did. Again. And it still seems to me that your concern is the second of the 2 options I gave. Sorry if I've misunderstood you. But then, where did you get the idea that I thought the FC was a charity?

enduro-aid – Member
surely in relation to the PEEL project at GT, the hub should be getting the cafe and retail space?? maybe work out a deal for cheap rent for all the years they have invested in the area

Lets face it any other business that looks at mountain bikers as potiental customers moving in there will fail, I know that I will always use the hub for coffee and cake and any spares i need when visting GT even if there is a new shiney shop and cafe on the other side

Unlikely to work out that way unfortunately. The Hub buildings are likely to be leased from FE, there will be a new tender put out and the current buildings removed. Very sad but likely.
Is that not what happened down in Wales?
I am sure Tracy, Emma and the wee chef(name?)would love a shiny new kitchen and cafe and the challenge to get it up and running.

Cathkin Braes: also used as an excuse not to develop cv so who knows what will happen post Commy Games. Deserves to flourish due to proximity to large population (in tandem with CV) but no local champions AFAIK and competes with GT for Glasgow punters so, absolutely bugger all would be my prediction.

Not so.
You will not get anything better than blue/green but FE are keen to create trails near towns. There used to be a policy called something like Woodlands in and around towns. We managed to get some stuff done which has been a huge success, includes FE, Council and others and is just of a Sustrans cycleway.
So it can be done.

The Board agreed to go with Option 2 (£200k including £40k contingency). The contingency should be for the project and managed to mitigate against risks or unforseeable events, rather than loose cost controls or change of scope. The total project budget for Glentress Peel would therefore be £8.9M.

From Heather Bash's link. I see nothing there that suggests that costs are rising above £9million, as asserted by H B. Or am I missing something?