- This topic has 59 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 13 years ago by PlopNofear.
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853 Tubing! Tell me…
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KINGTUTFree MemberPosted 13 years ago
And having ridden a DMR switchback and On-One 456 back to back with identical builds (everything was swapped over) I can safely say the 456 and DMR ride completely differenly. Funny that becasue if it were down to the steel sticker they should be entirely the same (ones 520, the other DN^, both rebadged 4130).
Both frame designs especially the rear are very different, the DMR switchback was made from far too thin a profile tubes IMO, the things cracked, bent, folded, dented and exploded into a puff of smoke as soon as look at them.
Edric64Free MemberPosted 13 years agoAs it's a weaker tube wouldn't it react to power input and stress differently though and therefore not be as springy which you would notice?
cookeaaFull MemberPosted 13 years agoThe other point to consider is just how many of the tubes need to be 853 in order to apply the sticker?
Pretty sure you can get away with a couple of 853 tubes and the rest can be whatever the remaining budget allows for… correct me if I’m wrong but most sold as “853” frames are only partly 853, that said if you do use it for just a couple of main tubes the weight saving is probably not totally insignificant, bit of a cost benefit calculation really…
clubberFree MemberPosted 13 years agoEdric 64 – Member
As it's a weaker tube wouldn't it react to power input and stress differently though and therefore not be as springy which you would notice?You're confusing stiffness and strength.
Both will 'feel' exactly the same because they have the same stiffness and therefore will flex exactly the same. Or at least they will until you load the weaker frame to a point where it bends permanently or snaps.
Earlier in the thread someone mentioned the diving board analogy – it's exactly that.
Take two diving boards made with identical dimensions but from different materials that have the same stiffness but different strengths.
Load both with, say 100kg and they'll both bend exactly the same amount.
Add a further 100kg to them both and the weaker one snaps while the stronger one just bends further.
james-oFree MemberPosted 13 years agoeveryone, apart from those that have provided informed answers not the usual questions – proceed to scott nichols' metalurgy for cyclists essays.. google will find them
you will be a more informed rider for reading them, i promise.
bluebirdFree MemberPosted 13 years agoIt's been proven that humans, including experts in their field, are incapable of being totally impartial when it comes to judging a quality, for example how well two people can play the violin, or in this case why one material rides/feels better than another. So, if you know before you ride two identical bikes, with identical geometry and identical build kits, that the blue bike is supposed to be better than the red one or uses a material you prefer, the chances are that you will judge the blue bike to be better.
clubbers post on page one illustrates this perfectly.
thisisnotaspoonFree MemberPosted 13 years agoBoth frame designs especially the rear are very different, the DMR switchback was made from far too thin a profile tubes IMO, the things cracked, bent, folded, dented and exploded into a puff of smoke as soon as look at them.
Really, wish you'd told me that before I bought one and spent the interveening time having an absolute blast on it in the Peaks/Lakes/south Derbyshire and more recently jump gulley at Swinley. On the other hand if you believe an 853 frame will help your riding, maybe its not for you.
clubberFree MemberPosted 13 years agobluebird, assume you mean this post
clubber – Member
Years ago, I got a frame repainted and rebuilt it with exactly the same components as before. Told my (very experienced cyclist) mate that I'd got a new frame. He rode it and commented about how much better it was than the old one. It's amazing the different a coat of paint or a sticker can make to even experienced riders if they think they know what to expect…I still wind him up about it 🙂
ac282Full MemberPosted 13 years agoIIRC the reason cy doesn't use 853 stays is that at the back end the tube dimensions are limited by stifness rather than strength so couldn't be any lighter if they were 853. Its not worth spending the extra on fancy material.
clubberFree MemberPosted 13 years agoCy:
"So after all the slagging we've just given cromoly, you're probably wondering why the rear end of the Soul is made out of the stuff instead of 853 now that 853 stays have become available (late 2005). Well, any structural problem is simply a matter of working to the limits of the material, and the rear end of the Soul is as strong and responsive as it can be through careful design and tube specification, backed up by more than 4 years of riding through prototyping and into production. Reynolds are only offering their 853 stays in the same profiles and wall thickness as our cromoly stays so they wouldn't any lighter, just an awful lot stronger (when our cromoly rear end is perfectly strong enough) and an awful lot more expensive. For the moment, we'll stick with what we've got. "
KINGTUTFree MemberPosted 13 years agoReally, wish you'd told me that before I bought one and spent the interveening time having an absolute blast on it in the Peaks/Lakes/south Derbyshire and more recently jump gulley at Swinley. On the other hand if you believe an 853 frame will help your riding, maybe its not for you.
Firstly I've had two Switchbacks crack at the seat tube and one that had a dented to tube from a very minor fall, OK that could happen to any bike but I've fallen off lots of bikes and that is the only one I have dented.
Secondly, There were quite a few Switchbacks that collapsed at the head tube early on.
Thirdly, I don't believe 853 is anything other than expensive steel and makes bugger all difference to the ride.
Fourthly, I now detest steel bikes in all their forms.
thisisnotaspoonFree MemberPosted 13 years agoFirstly I've had two Switchbacks crack at the seat tube and one that had a dented to tube from a very minor fall, OK that could happen to any bike but I've fallen off lots of bikes and that is the only one I have dented.
Secondly, There were quite a few Switchbacks that collapsed at the head tube early on.
1) bought a bike a size too small after falling for the shorter is more hardcore magazine boloks by any chance?
2) first batch apparently had a dodgy gusset (fnar fnar) mitre or some such fault. And tended to be bought by people looking for a trailstar 2lb lighter. Later ones had no ISCG tabs to differentiate it as an 'XC' frame. Oddly 'quite a few' folded always leads back to that one video of a guy crashing one on you-tube.
MacavityFree MemberPosted 13 years agoReynolds 531, 853 etc and Cromoly = Low alloy steels
http://aluminium.matter.org.uk/content/html/eng/default.asp?catid=89&pageid=2144417037
clubberFree MemberPosted 13 years agospoon – I think it's fair to say that a few did break and KT bought had the right sized one (he's too jey for anything too small). Pretty sure he never crashed it hard FWIW – again, too jey…
KINGTUTFree MemberPosted 13 years ago1) bought a bike a size too small after falling for the shorter is more hardcore magazine boloks by any chance?
I'm 6'2" frames(s) were 20", set up for XC, I don't do hardcore riding.
EDIT: Clubbers right, doesn't stop it making him a **** though. 😉
missingfrontallobeFree MemberPosted 13 years agoRecently gone from a Columbus Nemo tubed Cove HJ to an 853 maintubed Pipdream, not noticed any difference in ride, nor weight. Still a nice steel frame, but no advnatages over the Nemo tubing in how it feels to ride.
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