“If you compare ex British colonies to Spanish ones, who are the ones who are doing better? Oh yes, the ones that weren’t Catholic. If Spain had conquered North America, it to, would resemble Mexico.”

This is so ahistoric and loopy as to be almost impressive.

Seems pretty simple to me. Systematic neglect and abuse of children in institution run by nuns. People from a religious order either guilty or at least complicit in silence. Can’t see the positive influence of religion here.

Don’t need religion for abuse though – take the current Cyril Smith allegations…

Ironic.

I wonder how Ireland/the media there is dealing with this latest scandal. I was thinking last night, again decent religious Catholics – how must they feel again hearing this?interesting you are aware I was talking about you. 😆

bigot: origins, late 16th century (denoting a superstitious religious hypocrite): from French, of unknown origin. (OED)

irony: religious people calling atheists bigoted for pointing out their superstitious religious hypocrisy. (me)

If you think its wrong to have strong feelings against the books and belief systems which have led to so much misery (and bigotry :O) in the world, I’d love to see your reasoned arguments why you think religion should get a free pass.

Communism, Facism, and their followers can be called anything you like (which is good), but religion and its followers seem to claim a special place above criticism.

Why?

Honest question. (Top Tip: calling everyone you disagree with bigoted or ????phobic doesn’t constitute an actual answer)

Spot the bigots?

Ironic.

I wonder how Ireland/the media there is dealing with this latest scandal. I was thinking last night, again decent religious Catholics – how must they feel again hearing this? [/quote]

Lots of bigotry on this thread Hora (not from yourself).

Ignorance and bigotry here:

If you compare ex British colonies to Spanish ones, who are the ones who are doing better? Oh yes, the ones that weren’t Catholic. If Spain had conquered North America, it to, would resemble Mexico.

And here:

You’re right Tom, as well as the Vatican being complicit with some of the slaughter that was undertaken by the worst of the Nazis during WWII.

And again here:

Yep. You’re talking about a religion that covers up and tolerates all sorts of disgusting behaviour but ostracizes women who have children our of wedlock.

Take a look at the asylum system operated in this country up until 20 odd years ago:
Do you know how many people were denied their freedom?
How many died there? Where were they buried?
Why many of them were put there in the first place?
No. No you don’t.

The mindless prejudice, complete disregard of history and thoughtless stupidity behind such comments is amazing.

Threads that denigrate one particular religion are superb for identifying the ignorant – this and the recent anti Islam thread being perfect examples.

I’m an atheist myself, but I was brought up a Catholic and am not a fan of any religion.
But seriously, some people on here really need to take a damn good look at themselves.

irony: religious people calling atheists bigoted for pointing out their superstitious religious hypocrisy. (me)

If you think its wrong to have strong feelings against the books and belief systems which have led to so much misery (and bigotry :O) in the world, I’d love to see your reasoned arguments why you think religion should get a free pass.

Communism, Facism, and their followers can be called anything you like (which is good), but religion and its followers seem to claim a special place above criticism.

Why?

Honest question. (Top Tip: calling everyone you disagree with bigoted or ????phobic doesn’t constitute an actual answer)I’m not religious. So your irony fails on that point. Just pointing out there some blatant agendas going on in this thread.

I’m against all abuse and for the fervent prosecution of the perpretraitors regardless of denomination.

Good we mostly agree then. 🙂

For the record, I don’t like bigotry against _people_ and I know where it leads, but I can’t see any circumstances where _ideas_ should be protected from scrutiny (particularly in matters involving hundreds of dead babies).

Someone (apparently not Voltaire i’ve just learned from google) said “To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.”

As an example of where limiting criticism leads;

Theres a bloke in Spain this morning (Imran Firasat), facing deportation because, as a refugee from a death sentence (for apostacy) in Pakistan, he responded by making a movie about islam that muslims don’t like.

Spains fear of islamic terrorism is now apparently so great that making films about islam means you might get sent back to face a death sentence.

P.S. Mudshark, Please show your working and explain to the less enlightened among us how being able to prevent evil and yet unwilling to do so is a good thing and worthy of your ever loving god.

I don’t think of it as a “superficially clever argument” but as a statement of the obvious.

I’ll take your use of the word “superficial” to indicate that you have deeper understanding from a special source beyond that of the common man.

Please share.

Mr Spanner, the OED defines Bigotry as “Intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself”.

The gist of this thread has been expressing significant concern regarding the often evil, nasty and criminal activity of all too many members at all levels of the catholic church – child abuse, corruption, slave labour etc. More often than not hushed up, ignored and rarely prosecuted as we in the UK would recognise it.

For whatever reason you decide to accuse the members of this forum who are permitted to discuss such matters freely and openly as being bigots.
I salute you chap, I really do. Wow.

It’s not bigotry if you can back it up with statistics, I do believe that studies show that on the whole Catholic countries are more corrupt. I’ll have to find the data again.

Ah yes I see Spanner, but once again to ‘spell it out to you”, the thread was started by the OP after the media reported that 800 children’s corpses were found in the grounds of a Catholic establishment.

I’m sure stw members may have a go at the other religions, Church of England, the Baptists all of them next time an equivalent horror story is reported in their grounds. This was the Catholics, the discussion focussed on ‘and they won’t be prosecuted for any of this stuff either”. What has to happen? It literally is criminal.

I am wary of many over-religious types. I don’t limit it to the Catholics.

This may be the case refered to and the poster actually named the individual. The power of Google provides a greater insight.

From the link

4. The home never left the hands of the County Council. This point is important because it contradicts any impression that what went on at Tuam was a reflection of the unique callousness of the Catholic authorities: in fact, it was an institution that relied on state money. In 1951, the sisters begged the Council for more cash. In 1949, they met with Senator Martin Quinn and told him that children were suffering as a result of a lack of funds, to which he replied, “I do not like these statements which receive such publicity”. And, ashamedly, the locals actually complained about the cost to the ratepayers of financing the home.

Put all this evidence together and you have a far more nuanced picture than the one presented in parts of the media. Tuam was a miserable institution, blighted by underfunding and the snobbery of the locals. But it may sometimes have been run better than at other times, and it’s possible to see some of the nuns as people who were prepared to do something that the rest of the community would not – care, no matter how poorly, for unwanted children.

In other words, the tragedy of Tuam has to be put into the context of the wider culture of its time. It was not a Catholic tragedy so much as an Irish or even European one. Unfortunately, it’s hard not to infer from the reportage that the Tuam story is being used as part of a wider attempt to suggest that Catholic dogma is responsible for much of the misery of the past. Time and again, we’ve been presented with headlines that indict the Church for crimes against humanity – only for the facts to somewhat blunt the force of the accusation.

Hmmm…

for unwanted children.

Why do you think the children were unwanted thm? Why would the families of the unmarried pregnant girl want her and her child out of their sight?

Good point, obviously there’s never been any stigmatism for unmarried mothers in the U.K because it’s a good un-catholic country

Many reason DD as you will be aware. None of which are exclusive to countries, cultures or religions or even periods of history.

Makes nice headlines though!

Well TB it’s a good job that you can determine that the fault here lies exclusively and directly with a particular religion. Seems rather more complicated to me.

Terrible, terrible story though

Oh, indeed, as you’ve already guessed, I’m perfectly aware. Now, are you going to answer the question and tell me why you think unmarried pregnant women and their children were stigmatised in Ireland for centuries?

That’s fine. Y’know, I think I can handle complicated discussion…let’s go, I’ll let you know when I’m struggling to keep up.

We are indebtedness to Corless for uncovering much of what happened here, so her views are not a bad starting point, as are her comments in how her research has been subsequently been mis-represented.

The Irish Times

Very interesting dd, thanks for that. TBC, I was not suggesting that anyone was absolved of guilt and my edit was intended to acknowledge (in a shallow way) some of your points. I hope that came across. Cheers for the post, well made. I understand your sentiments if not “all” the conclusions!

(FWIW, I not a catholic nor an apologist for anyone who does wrong, including “all” those responsible at Tuam.)

Aye, very true Seosamh. I’m just making my points regarding the culpability of the church in Ireland. I’m fully aware (sorry, not carping back at what you said) that horrible stuff has been perpetrated without any belief in a divine being coming into it. The attitudes (perhaps the last of which) I saw growing up in Ireland came from the teachings of the church, or at least, from the God’s mouthpieces here on earth. I realise I’m repeating myself, but it’s difficult to explain quite how influential at every level of society the RC church was in Ireland.

Now, there’s a philosophical discussion to be had to pinpoint that where you blame the man or his religion. Religion is abstract and we’ll all have different viewpoints as to where you start blaming one or the other.

I agree that none of this stuff would likely happen today in Ireland, but that is down to the waning influence of the church in Ireland and people having a much more cynical view of it (sadly, as a result of the countless scandals).

Having said all that, I had three great-aunts (or gran-aunts as we used to call them) who were nuns, all of whom I only ever knew as very gentle people, and I’m sure, that if they were alive, they’d be horrified at what has been uncovered. I also encountered, through hurling and education, plenty of priests and CBs who were the soundest guys you could meet and never laid a wrong hand on a soul and who would all be horrified at all these revelations.

Do we beat up the current church? I dunno. Do we learn from these mistakes and treat every denial, every supposed cover-up with suspicion and cynicism? IMO, yes.

Learning from mistakes is the only worthwhile thing.

While I say I don’t think it’s worthwhile beating up the current church. I do think it’s worthwhile taking the lessons and applying barriers to this kind of thing happening anywhere. So ultimately I think it’s pointless the church coming out with statements or us castigating them for historical wrongs(living individuals should be prosecuted). I think the ultimate responsibility lies with the rest of us to ensure it doesn’t happen again. (essentially don’t allow these institutions the power they once had, as they’ve proven they don’t have the structures to deal with it and are open to abuse from groups and individuals.)

While I’m not religious and don’t believe in the fairy tales(since I was 12), I do believe the church does some good, but there is and was also bad there. So as a society it’s up to the rest of us to keep them, and any institution, in check.

From an Irish perspective, as you alluded to above, it’s interesting how the church got the power, ie through a vacuum of law essentially(as ireland was run not for the people but as a bread basket and the laws refliected this). Goes some way to explaining why it actually got so bad in Ireland as the people looked elsewhere for their authority.

Interesting thoughts for the colonial wars of today and the kind of problems they are leaving around the world through their destruction of existing power structures. While we all like to criticize authority, ultimately we are drawn to power structures and order as humans.