Hi All,

Latest news on the Houndkirk front. There have been two assaults recently elsewhere in the Peak when people have tried to have a quiet word with the motorised fraternity. At Baslow, a runner tried to alert some trail riders that there were kids on the trail ahead and got duffed up for his trouble. In the White Peak, a Peak Park Ranger got the same treatment, but I don’t have the full details.

Suffice to say, some of these idiots are looking for an excuse to hand out a beating, so take precautions. Don’t overtly record registration numbers if you see illegal activity, memorise it and write it down later. However, on sunday five 4×4’s were doing circuits of the illegal trials loop on Houndkirk. They’d all removed their number plates, which makes identification a bit difficult!

Although the police are now taking this issue seriously, they’re not committing a great deal of resources. So…… complain to your local councillor or MP. If the police get enough flak from the politicians, they’ll have to do something about it.

But most of all, don’t become a casualty!!

cheers
jh

The few off-roaders that are left are going to be by far the bloody hardest to get rid of.

I agree with Sooty…

The expression on some 4×4 drivers up on houndkirk when you overtake their 30 grand idiotmobile on a 400 quid hardtail mountain bike is classic 😉

I suspect those trying to “have a quiet word” started with “you ****…..” or words to that effect. Regardless, follow sooty’s advice, they can be had cheaply these days.

Off-roading in a 4×4 is actually really good fun.

I have no sympathy with any violence handed out but I do have sympathy when the 4×4 enthusiasts are seeing the hobby they really enjoy being driven out.

On this forum there are anti-car fanatics who delight in stating there opposition to any motorised vehicles. Thing is we are in a glass house, the ramblers in some areas would like to see restricted bridleway access to bikes and we cannot have it both ways.

There are plenty of cheeky trails about and unless you never ride these then you can’t really have a pop at the 4×4 boys enjoying themselves. imho horses create more problems with my local trails in terms of damage in terms of volume of traffic.

I see comments like “the few off-roaders that are left are going to be by far the bloody hardest to get rid of” and I can’t avoid thinking the author (and Sooty and RudeBoy) don’t give a toss about eradicating what is for some a great hobby.

the few off-roaders that are left are going to be by far the bloody hardest to get rid of

Count – There’s logic behind what I’m saying and we’re 100% on the same wavelength. I’ve got to go offline as they’re locking the office, so TBC tomorrow 🙂 (unless the thread falls into some kind of 1 thousand post irrelevant argumentitive nightmare, in which case I doubt I’ll bother).

Count – have you seen the damage they are doing up there? I don’t mind them using the houndkirk road (green lane) itself but the mess they have made with their circuit in the peat at the top is really bad.

(Edit) If I were a self respecting 4×4 enthusiast, I would be very annoyed about the idiots going off piste up there, as it a) brings 4×4 and trials bikers into disrepute, and b) is causing so much damage that a likely response at some point will be to ban them from the area entirely

Count – Isn’t this thread about illegal 4×4 usage?

Having seen the damage caused by illegal 4×4 usage as well as that caused by mtbers riding footpath I can honest say that the damage caused by MTBers pales into insignificance beside that of 4×4’s. Some studies even believe that mtbers cause less damage than a comparable number of ramblers due to a heavier footfall over a smaller radius from staring point.

“Count – Isn’t this thread about illegal 4×4 usage?”

yep it is, the area in question off the main houndkirk route is a SSSI, and as the recently errected signs say the people using motorised vehicles are risking confiscation of their vehicles and a very large fine. Probably why they have removed the number plates. The main houndkirk track is suffering from the increased 4×4 usage, but it’s not too bad yet.

I used to drive a 4×4, I used it to take young and old disabled/less able folk out of the towns and cities so that they could get a chance to see the countryside. It was once of the best experiences you could wish for, many of them had never been so far from anything man made. It was quite literally moving. I also used to be the RoW officer for a large off road club, we worked very hard clearing Byways, laying hardcore & improving drainage, requesting TRO’s and educating people to identify illegal activity as well as how to report and follow it up.

The Ramblers association and their foul, greedy, corrupt and complicit old boys network of political members & lobbyists successfully destroyed all of that. Assholes who believed they had more of a right to walk in the countryside “without interruption to their spiritual uplift” eroded what little access rights Off Road driving enthusiasts had.

I’m not surprised that people are now receiving a hostile reception when voicing their displeasure at vehicular usage (legal or now more likely illegal).

Alun Michaels and the rest of those selfish bigoted red socked cronies are ultimately to blame.

I suggest you live and let live, the earth has a very robust durinal course, its been there for hundreds of years and its not about to disappear just because it gets a bit muddy.

I’m no longer a representative for the 4×4 community, to be honest I know why they feel like that, I would suggest you keep your distance and if you get close, a smile won’t get you a kicking.

Count: have you seen the damage on houndkirk? i respect the rights of 4×4 owners to do their thing legally and responsibly but they are basically destroying the area.

how exactly are they “destroying” the area? do you mean, “making it muddy”?

mr nutt: As you were what appears to be a responsible off roader surely you can not support what is illegal driving that is destroying one of the nicest areas of countryside in the UK

mr nutt. The vehicles are leaving the main track and creating an offroad “playground” over the moorland. And no its nut just making the area muddy it really is destroying the area which will take years to recover.

Racing Ralph posted some pictures last year, before the wet weather which shows how bad it was then, let alone now!

to be honest vetantarider I think the term “destroying” is bullshit, its all part of the anti-4×4 propaganda spat about by the RamAss, have you ever seen what a modern plough does to a field? have you seen them DESTROYING THE COUNTRYSIDE, miraculously after a shockingly short period of time that very same area is filled with crop or lush grassland.

LESS THAN ONE PERCENT OF THE NATIONAL TRAIL NETWORK IS OPEN TO MOTORIZED VEHICULAR USE!

LESS THAN ONE PERCENT!!!

Is it a surprise that 4×4 enthusiasts have no other option but break the law or be accused of DESTROYING the few open routes?

NO ONE has ever given me a descent reason why all the Roads Used as Public Paths (RUPP) were downgraded to RESTRICTED BYWAY.

It was an act of government sanctioned THIEFT, no more no less, Access to those routes was STOLEN by the countryside’s most selfish and vocal user group.

The only erosion that was actually occurring was that of normal peoples freedom.

go ride somewhere else, go back a few months later and you’ll wonder what all the fuss was about.

LIVE AND LET LIVE.

destroying the area which will take years to recover.

how the hell can you believe that? go on, educate me, how is that going to take “years to recover”??

The bottom two are about 6-8ft deep and full of water.

direct linking not allowed Ralph, can you try again?

edit: used right click to view in another window

mr nutt: as i said i support the right of 4×4 drivers to do their thing legally and responsibly. It is not other countryside users fault that there are limited areas where they can go. If you know Houndkirk I am not talking about the main track through the moor which does cut up that i am talking about its off of this. I presume you have not seen this damage because if you had I would not for one minute think you could defend it!

For what it’s worth I do believe it will take years to recover and if it keeps on being used as a playground it obviously never will.

Another point is that within a mile or so of this area there is an “official” offroad course

6-8ft deep? really? eight foot deep? do you seriously expect me to believe that?

and how exactly is that going to take “years to recover”?

I also fail to believe that that was “before wet weather” as I remember rightly it pissed it down throughout last year!

what do you think would happen to that little expanse of soil should it be abandoned again? with in a matter of weeks the countryside would have begun to reclaim it and after a matter of months you would ride past it and think “what a beautiful and lush area”, because the soil had been aerated and churned.

What you see there is the DIRECT RESULT of excluding and persecuted a group of enthusiasts and forcing them to find out of the way areas to participate in their chosen pursuit.

If they were able to legal traverse more than LESS THAN ONE PERCENT of the countryside you wouldn’t end up with such concentrated usage.

If you genuinely believe this:

It is not other countryside users fault that there are limited areas where they can go.

then sir, with all due respect, you are ether an arse or completely ignorant as to the relentless anti-4×4 lobbying and campaigning carried out by the Ramblers Association.

whats more if you:

…do believe it will take years to recover and if it keeps on being used as a playground it obviously never will.

then you clearly have no understanding of the countryside nature or agriculture.

oh, and last but not least:

Another point is that within a mile or so of this area there is an “official” offroad course

I suppose you only ride trail centers, after all, why would you ride anywhere else?

Right, this is my last post on the subject.

Those pictures RR posted were taken last year well before winter set in and do not show the real extent of the damage.

I notice you havn’t said if you have actally seen what we are talking about!

For your information I am not a treehugging anti-car activist and do infact own a 4×4 myself.

The fact is, there are some areas that cannot sustain certain types of use, especially in certain conditions. That includes hiking, mountain biking, horse riding, and motorised vehicles. If you can’t travel through an area without damaging it, you shouldn’t be there, or you need to find another way of doing it such that your impact is negligible.

The argument that you can go somewhere else and come back later is hardly appropriate if you live in an area which is being (literally) eroded infront of your very eyes and have no means or access to other areas.

How can you justify actions that have a damaging effect on places, landscape, heritage and other species, or the negative impact these actions have on other people’s enjoyment and value found in such places? Regardless of how one percieves one’s own actions, most would consider their own actions in relation to the ways in which they impact on others.

Obviously if you believe the world is a resource that can be used indiscriminately to satisfy individual desires at the expense of other and future generations, and that ultimately the satisfaction of personal desires trumps all else then this line of argument will not wash. Some might call this selfish. Keep on truckin’ as it were.

MrNutt do you make an effort to be a cock or does it come naturally. The latter i guess! Come ride with us and see for your self!

actually, I’ve had enough of this, I lived it, tried everything I could to keep the countryside open for all and not the selfish minority.

I’ve argued this through and through, I’ve learnt that people prefer to believe what they are told to believe by the peer groups they aspire to belong to.

I’ve seen people build successful political careers on selfishly eroding other peoples freedom.

I’ve seen common sense & decency fail in the face of greed & selfishness.

I expect them to come for the Trail Riders and Mountain Bikers next.

And they will probably succeed.

because of close minded “believers” in their “righteous cause”.

I’m not arguing this anymore, its a lost argument,

Common freedom was the argument, and freedom has been lost.

Don’t expect to be able to ride the Rights of Way network for anymore than five more years, then, when you’re within a mile or so of an “official” offroad course. Don’t ask yourself “what happened to my rights?”.

Mr Nutt “6-8ft deep? really? eight foot deep? do you seriously expect me to believe that? “

yes they really are 8ft deep or more in places. The area is soft/acid soil and cuts up very very easily. The main track is an old stone laid road, that has for years stayed in a very good state of repair. Recently the 4x4s have started to re use an area formed by the creation of a national gas pipeline, creating a route off the main track. The 4x4s have been playing in this area to the point where the vegetation has been stripped back and the topsoil completely destroyed. The area is higher than the main track and the loosened soil has been washed down the hill onto themain track.

This has turned the hard sandy track into a mess. Also, 4x4s have been driving up footpaths that radiate off the byway. These footpaths are very soft soil and the result is an impassable bog, whereas before there was a 2ft wide hard footpath.

A lot of the 4x4s have started using houndkirk road after being banned from some of tracks over totley moor, where the damage was so bad that hollows developed that would completely cover a 4×4. Then the 4x4s went around them turning the track into a 20ft wide bog impassable to all other users.

I’m all for respectable usage, but on tracks 15 min drive from the city centre you seem to get all sorts of **** using it who dont know/care how they drive over it

MrNutt.
Ok I can accept that by being hounded out of an area it might annoy people, but beating people up because they had a word is utterly stupid, even more so if one of them does happen to be a park ranger.
If your pals keep that up they are surely going to get 4×4’s banned from all areas in the park

mrnutt check your email

racing_ralph – Member
MrNutt do you make an effort to be a cock or does it come naturally. The latter i guess! Come ride with us and see for your self!

Its all natural I’m afraid, I can completely accept that I am a cock, an idiot and often wrong.

This was an issue that was close to my heart, my heart was broken when I had to tell them that we couldn’t go out in the truck out anymore, because the walkers had closed the countryside.

I fought long and hard, spent may a sleepless night trying to protect countryside access rights and reconcile that despite my best efforts all had been lost.

I am bitter, I sold my truck, I stopped walking in the country and walked away from it all. Now I couldn’t care what happens, if its “illegal” I couldn’t care less, there’s plenty of countryside out there for everyone to use.

I’ll take you up on the offer of the ride though, that said, I am a complete cock 😉

I’ve seen common sense & decency fail in the face of greed & selfishness.

I agree- common sense and decency should result in people behaving in ways in which they consider the result of their behaviour. Irresponsible behaviour as in the original and subsequent posts clearly does not show any characteristic of this.

name the date – a week on saturday/sunday is good for us

grahamt1980 – Member
MrNutt.
Ok I can accept that by being hounded out of an area it might annoy people, but beating people up because they had a word is utterly stupid, even more so if one of them does happen to be a park ranger.
If your pals keep that up they are surely going to get 4×4’s banned from all areas in the park

They are not “my pals” I’m completely out of the 4×4 loop as it were, I’ve had nothing to do with offroading for years now.

I’m not surprised that its turned to violence, that is all, I don’t condone it anymore than I condone exclusion of selected user groups, its violence that is usually the last refuge of the persecuted or oppressed.

looks like something is being done about it though:

http://www.sheffieldtelegraph.co.uk/letters/Shared-concerns-on-Houndkirk-Moor.4908229.jp

Perhaps John should have drawn peoples attention to this:

The banning of vehicles using the road legally would, we believe, exacerbate rather than reduce the problem of illegal activity on the moor, and lead to knock-on effects elsewhere. If however, anyone witnesses illegal off-roading, they should contact South Yorkshire police on 0114 2202020.

If you see illegal activity REPORT IT TO THE POLICE.

Going to “have a word” is not a sensible option, Like I said; violence is usually the last refuge of the persecuted or oppressed.

There should be a place for everyone to enjoy their hobbies and I was dismayed at hearing the recent lobbying to stop green laning. However Houndkirk and similar areas of National parks is not the place for 4×4 playgrounds!

Funnily enough, while taking pics of my bike tonight on Houndkirk a Landrover passed – I looked up and said hello with camera in hand – he immediately stopped and quite aggressively challenged me about taking a picture of him 😐
I just said I was taking pics of a new bike, he carried on.
I have the No. plate though – I might call police on 101 and let em know.
I hadn’t thought anything of it until seeing this thread.

We very much share the concerns expressed, and a plan of action has been drawn up by Sheffield City Council, Peak District National Park Authority and Natural England, with support from South Yorkshire police. This includes repairs by landscaping, fencing and revegetation of the damaged ground.

So now the taxpayers are having to foot the bill for the repairs and we are going to have fences put up spoiling the landscape further!

I’m not surprised that its turned to violence, that is all, I don’t condone it anymore than I condone exclusion of selected user groups, its violence that is usually the last refuge of the persecuted or oppressed.

Oh dear. Next time a rambler makes me feel a bit oppressed, I’ll be sure not to have a quiet word with him…………

…..I’ll just kick his f***ing head in

MrNutt, i’m not going to insult you, but if you really want to know what the 4x4s are damaging on Houndkirk moor and why it will take years to recover (try decades actually, peat doesn’t exactly form overnight) then i suggest you start here:

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:e57eo37XwUIJ:www.english-nature.org.uk/citation/citation_photo/2000354.pdf+houndkirk+peat&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk