A decision between the 456 or blue pig. I am looking at these two frames and they are pretty similar - can booth take 150mm forks and are both steel.
can either one run 160mm (lyrik's), looking second hand for marzocchi pre 2007 or rockshox (revs, pikes)
I am looking at these two frames and they are pretty similar
No they aren't.
Care to elucidate Brant? Genuinely interested as I'm looking for a move from DH based ht to something more "all-day trail"
No they aren't.
Well, that's told ya. Mind, I'd have thought you'd have got a bit more explanation. Must be a bit pushed for time. 
Well I'd be happy to get info as to what the differences are from anyone but figured Brant is probably sufficiently in-the-know
I'm working on a high quality video of my evenings entertainment. It'll be here shortly - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gOf5z8EghQ
Anyhow, come on folks, let's work a bit - in how many ways are they even SIMILAR?
I designed them both.
They are made out of chromoly.
They have a 27.2mm seatpost, and a 34mm ID headtube.
They take gears.
Well that's four things I guess.
Ragley seems to winning my vote over the 456.
they're both trail bikes?
they're both designed for long forks?
i thought the guy wanted to know the difference. merely stating that they're different doesn't seem like much of an answer 
Does the Ragley come with a basket on the front, now that would be a difference.
Hum - a man posts up seeking advice, maybe he doesn't pepper his post with "IIRC" or "IMHO" stuff but instead of actually trying to help him there's a bunch of sarkey stuff. Brant, shame on you - if you are the designer then it seems to have gone to your head (only IMHO of course, feel free to disagree etc etc)
Simon - I wish I could offer you some useful advice but I don't know enough about the two frames concerned - good luck and I hope you get some useful feedback.
Thanks, at least someone is trying to give me advice. The ragley looks nicer and cleaner, the £100 difference...
the ragley looks like it can take and handle 160/170mm(run sag)? fork
what sort of riding would it be for?
456 goes up and down good but the pig does both better. It climbs far better and it just makes you want to try do stuff your not good enough to do 
well to me anyway lol its great goin down too the set up is spot on. I luv mine only been on the turner once since buying tho had to do two skills courses as I wasn't good enough to ride what the bike made me try to . As a side note designers aren't known for taking steps backwards in design . Both good I just way prefer the pig. Comfy on all day rides too
after that response op I would go for something else...
both the crush and stifee are aluminium. had alu frames in past - all day riding (uncomfy). my riding is the likes of ashton court/leigh woods, afan, cwn carn
456 is pretty stiff, there are more comfortable ally frames
i like my new 456 alot..even though its not a surly 
it climbs,descends and goes along the flat stuff fine...and its nice and cheap...oh it has 140 coil pikeys
instead of actually trying to help him there's a bunch of sarkey stuff.
It's not really sarkey. It's more a dissapointment that the work that designers put into things aren't really picked up by people sometimes.
Here's a video of some of the key points about the design on the Blue Pig - http://vimeo.com/4443391
Geometrically it sits you forward when you're sat down and climbing, but has a slack head angle to help you go down very steep things in control.
just because its alu doesn't mean its not comfy
piggy.
Isn't the Blue Pig a bit more beefy than a 456? I'm sure it's heavier and if it was an all-day bike I'd definitely go for the 456. I could be talking crap though lol.
Seems to me that if the designer can't be arsed to use the minute or so he took to respond to your post to give you the facts you need, instead of slagging you off, then you should look elsewhere.
The reason why I am sticking to the 456 or blue pig is budget - £300 max for frame and to use 160mm forks
That all black one looks so good!
It's not really sarkey. It's more a dissapointment
that the work that designers put into things
aren't really picked up by people sometimes.
where's the violins...
he was asking a question your response was uncalled for. I for one have looked at your frames and considered buying one , but for me that just wouldn't happen now after reading this, you've come across as a total arse
160mm forks on a hardtail for all round riding?
It's not really sarkey. It's more a dissapointment that the work that designers put into things aren't really picked up by people sometimes.
Christ almighty, that's REALLY bloody obnoxious! Bikes are your life, you know them inside out and happen to design them (pretty well I might add) for a living. The majority of punters on here, and anywhere else for that matter, are a hell of a lot less clued up than you are about bikes, so you could do well to remember that and be a bit more helpful if you're going to offer advice, particularly as it was a premium opportunity for you to step in and be as helpful as possible given that you designed both frames!
I am a DJ at weekends, have had a few residencies in the past, and am pretty bloody good at what I do even if I do say so myself. Now I know that 98% of the people in the clubs I play won't really appreciate the effort I go to to seamlessly mix one record into the next, to construct a set so that it builds up and breaks down at the right times, to get the mixes in key, and to read the crowd and feed off their vibe, even though they may well enjoy my music. That a couple of people in a hundred do get it though, and might even make the effort to come and tell me that they really appreciate it, makes all the difference! NO WAY would or could I expect the vast majority to do so... And I think you need to think likewise Brant. It's much much better to appear humble and grateful than it is to appear arrogant and know it all, even if you feel totally unappreciated sometimes!
And FWIW, comparing the 2 frames, given that I'm a bit of a bike nerd, to spot many differences between the 456 and the Blue Pig isn't all that easy. Both designed around a similar travel fork, built from same material etc. Of course I get that the key point is the geometry is different with a 2 degree slacker head angle on the Blue Pig, which probably makes it more stable and "modern" in feel, but a lot of people really aren't going to pick up on many more things! The 2 frames look a lot more similar to the uninitiated than they do different...
I've had both, and have a Pig at present. Both excellent to be honest. Both very versatile bikes. Maybe try a 456 second hand as they're more readily available on the market than a Pig?
is there something wrong about me getting advice and whats wrong with using 160mm forks for general riding. 110mm atm and not enough
whats wrong with using 160mm forks for general riding.
isn't the blue pig designed for 150mm forks max?
Not quite the same, but I've had a 456 in the past and now have a mmmbop (same as pig but different material - although of course I could have missed a subtle difference in there...)
I didn't really get on with the 456, and was a bit dubious about the mmmbop after the first few rides, until this evening it seemed to come together and really enjoyed it. It kind of mixes the downhill grrrr I had with the Sidekick with pikes with the ability to actually climb. I'm really surprised how easy it is to climb on, as long as you sit right on the nose of the saddle it gets up stuff I have issues on with my XC bike. (could also be partly due to running bigger tyres on it)
Can't say I feel the need for more travel on it. It feels spot on with 140.
On another subject - Hadge can you check your ntl mails please! I've sent payment for the bars 
simonlovell999 - Memberand whats wrong with using 160mm forks for general riding. 110mm atm and not enough
Cos that's just a mental amount of travel for 'general riding', unless you live in the Alps, or are some sort of Freeride god. (IMO)
I think that Brant doesn't like doing direct comparisons as he doesn't want to (or isn't allowed to) be seen to running his old frames down in comparison to the newer stuff. I've bought six of his bikes now and he's still that blunt with me, doesn't stop him being really helpful when you're a customer though.
As for the differences, slacker head angle and steeper seat angle means the blue pig is significantly better both up and down steep stuff than the 456 ime. If flatter, twistier, singletrack is your thing then a normal inbred may be better suited.
Frames are as close to dammit the same weight as far as i can see but the pig comes with better cable routing and much better detailing around the rear stays. I am biased though, i have a Ragley Ti and love it loads.
If the only difference you can spot between the two frames is the head angle then your just not looking. Seat angle has (after riding both ) made an amazing difference and one I didn't expect, also the tyre and chainring clearance generated by the chainstay design, the superb movable cable guides, the chainstay mounted disc mount to name a few. All these little changes make a big difference to the look and the ride of the frame.
With regards to Brant's reply, anyone who has posted here on a regular basis will surely be familiar with his style (I like his refreshing honesty). I suspect at 9pm he's thinking a little more about his family and relaxing than spending all night on a forum pointing out all the changes and evolutions of his designs that can be easily seen with a little reading and research.
I'm a little tired of the constant "what......" that seems to populate all forums. I always thoroughly check all the details of any purchase or decision I'm going to make rather than wander onto a forum and hope that someone will make the decision for me (thus giving you someone to blame if you dont like it)
Save another 70 quid and get a BFe.
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