Epicyclo,

I was not commenting on the choices made by the individual, regarding which size of wheels they choose.

I was commenting about the possible motives of large bicycle companies to change wheel standards.

Its either:

1) Improving the individuals biking experience by offering marginal benefits to riders. I say marginal, as there is little which has been quantified today.

2) the possibility to make huge amounts of money, by convincing the masses that they need to change to the new standard. Thus opening the door for massive fork, frame, tyre and tube sales.

So… in all honesty. What do you really think was the initial motive?

the possibility to make huge amounts of money, ..

In the MTB market? Hehe.. No chance.

You give marketing too much credit for power. Brands react to what consumers do. Small brands do stuff to fill niches, niches grow, big brands offer their versions. 29ers were consumer-driven – for 10yrs + most big brands and most riders didn’t want to know. And brands are generally riders too )
29er sales are not incremental, they’re just alternative sales. People who went out to buy a new bike to get bigger wheels are the type that buy something new every year anyway and there’s easier ways to do that than change something as major as the wheels – that was a hard sell for a long time.

I thought about writing something deep and intellectual about why I prefer 29ers, but I can’t be bothered – it won’t make any difference to the binary thinking that STW is so well known for.

So heres my epiphany moment. Make of it what you will.

A slight down hill bit of double track, full of bedded-down babyheads – kind of similar riding to a cattle damaged track. Plenty bumpy and enough to mess with forward progress.

Me and a pal were chatting as we free-wheeled this section, him on a rigid 29er, me on a 26 DW 5spot. I am 4 stone heavier than my pal and on smoother downhill coasts I overhaul him purely down to the extra weight I’m packing.

All of a sudden, we can’t chat anymore, because he’s rolling away from me, whilst we’re both coasting.

That was the moment I realised there’s something in it.

All my mtbs are now 29ers and I’m really happy with them. I can’t see there’s any down side for my type of riding, except a little bit of weight in the wheels and a slightly later turn in. I’ve felt more difference between a race hardtail and a long travel trail bike TBH.

so this thread is about CLIMBING fireroads and your argument is about rolling downhill?

and the losses involved in suspension compared to a hardtail probably made much more difference than wheel size

I’m not postulating any kind of argument. Please re-read the first line of my post.

Surely if the bigger wheels thing was driven by the bike industry they would have come up with 650 first saying bigger is better and then later on come up with 29ers saying even bigger is even better . The way it has happened does not make commercial sense from a bike companies perspective .

“the possibility to make huge amounts of money, ..”
In the MTB market? Hehe.. No chance.

Have you checked Specialized’s turnover recently?

so this thread is about CLIMBING fireroads and your argument is about rolling downhill?

and the losses involved in suspension compared to a hardtail probably made much more difference than wheel size

So you don’t think that any advantages you get rolling downhill might also apply when pedalling uphill? You also think you’re going to get losses from the suspension (which will slow you down more than the bumps would if unsuspended) when not pedalling?

It’s actually a very good test as anecdotes go – for a start it’s eliminated the effect of pedalling.

That what I thought, but there are far to many nay-sayers keen for a fight about it to make me bother trying to have a reasonable discussion.

I noticed the same thing about the Gyro. I wupped my own QOMs by a couple of km/h without even trying on a couple of local routes and was surprised. I was borrowing the bike and have not really been that interested in 29ers (after all, as a lady, I only ever ride side saddle anyway) as they feel a bit big. I may be a (grudging) convert – the Gyro’s the first one I’ve felt comfortable on.

not at all keen for a fight – just dont think your example was very relevant

the Gyro’s the first one I’ve felt comfortable on

It is a very good execution though!

I’m tempted to arrange a Five29 vs Five test. I’ve even got the same American Classic wheelsets and Schwalbe tyres in 26 and 29. But more because it will just be a big traffic bait piece rather than actually caring much 😛

Some interesting comments there folks. As the OP I’m grateful that people stuck pretty much to topic at first, but I don’t think we can really complain about it drifting off topic by the third page.

Scienceofficer I can understand why you can’t be bothered, but I’d be interested to hear that deep intellectual argument.

Clover can I ask how tall you are? You make the comment about 29ers feeling big, which makes me think you may not fit into the “over 6′” demographic that is supposed to be suited to 29ers, yet you obviously felt comfortable on the Gyro.

GaryLake Looking forward to that Five vs Five29 test. Should be very interesting. I’m still swithering between the Gyro and the Five. The Gyro is undoubtedly the better bike for the rider I am now, but there is always that temptation to go for a Five and hope I grow into it.

I’m 5’8″ and I tend to go for medium frame sizes and like lighter bikes (I don’t have the power to weight to bike ratios of a bloke). Despite this the Gyro (I think a couple of pounds heavier than the bike I usually ride) went faster both up and down moderately lumpy hills. It even went faster than my CX bike up one hill. I was a bit non-plussed tbh.

it will just be a big traffic bait piece

Is that an industry term?

Is that an industry term?

In internet publishing, yeah. Best example is probably the Daily Mail 😉

Thanks Clover. I guess you’ve always got to wary of the new bike effect making you push harder, but it’s interesting to hear that you got on so well with the Gyro. When are you placing your order?

So heres my epiphany moment. Make of it what you will

Third ride into a week of demoing a 29er from an accommodating local shop, I sensed there was something in it but the penny hadn’t really dropped. I was JRA, solo, and got to the end of a familiar trail and suddenly realised I was less knackered than I was meant to be, and the track had got shorter. That’s another way of saying my head was calibrated for how long it took me to ride on a 26, and the calibration was wrong for a 29.

That’s how it worked for me. I find big wheels more fun. All my bikes are 29ers now. I am below average height, height has nothing to do with it.

I can only speak as I find.

Have fun y’all, and ride what makes you happy. Like I do.

jameso – Member

the possibility to make huge amounts of money, ..

In the MTB market? Hehe.. No chance.

You give marketing too much credit for power. Brands react to what consumers do.

Mate, you are living in cloud cuckoo land. Seriously! you don’t think that there is lots of money in mountain biking? wake up and smell the cornflakes buddy.

Let me tell you that when you see some carbon fibre frames tagged up for $3000, they will have come out of taiwan for no more than $300. And further, you will only see innovations in the bicycle industry developed that are clearly marketable. For many large bicycle companies, marketing budget far exceeds development. If its not highly marketable, its not developed, its as simple as that.

Smaller wheels and tyres must create more drag over any given surface than a larger tyre and wheel due to the tyre dropping into any ruts or depressions created on the surface. What do you want from your bike? If you want to ride faster, get a more efficient bike ( 29er) or train harder. I ride primarily to try and stay fit because I could never use a gym. I’ll stick with 26″ for now because I like how it feels, the parts are cheap, don’t care how fast I am. Ha I’ve only just gone to 9 speed!

9 speed’s great, all the gears anyone needs.

I ride a 69er and it’s a nightmare to be honest, rear wheel is always accelerating fast and being twitchy and the front just wants to roll over everything and race off uphill by itself, it’s gonna end in tears 😉

chief9000 – Member

Mate, you are living in cloud cuckoo land. Seriously! you don’t think that there is lots of money in mountain biking? wake up and smell the cornflakes buddy.

he’s got a better idea than most…

Anecdote does not = evidence. I have days where I feel like I am suddenly miles faster and fitter on the bike. If I happened to be demoing a new bike that day (one with wheel sizes constantly being given magic properties by countless magazines/evangelists) I might think that was the reason.

There’s so much subjectivity and confirmation bias going on all the time that we’re not really aware of.

Every single person who has a 29er is apparently completely uninfluenced by marketing/hype though. 🙂

I don’t think a 29er will suit all riders. At 6ft 4in (and a bit) they suit me.

In my case yes they are faster.

There’s so much subjectivity and confirmation bias going on all the time that we’re not really aware of.

Would agree

Chief, I work in the bike industry and I’ve seen a few factories making all kinds of frames and bikes over the years. It’s an OT diversion (sorry OP) so maybe best discussed elsewhere; although my dismissal of MTB industry profits may be a bit ott and a joke, it doesn’t all work like the classic ‘marketing and $$$ drive us onto product X’ posts on here suggest.

Confirmation bias is always a danger if you can’t do blind tests, which is what interested me about the fire road climbing results. They went against my preconceived ideas, so can’t really be confirmation bias. Although I’ll accept that there could be an element of trying a bit harder to minimize what you expect to be a weakness and in the process turning it into a strength. Obviously we’ll never know. as I keep saying, this isn’t science; just a bit of fun.

Big wheels work well on fire roads, it allows for the maximum efficiency gain of 29 over 26. They simply roll more efficiently and that advantage compounds up over long straight lines. I notice the same effect when we use roads to link trails. I’m surprised its even a question really.

On a flat fire road, yes, I can see that rolling resistance (including effect of bumps) will be key. But once you start climbing then you are mainly working to overcome gravity. OK, so a 2lb difference in weight is only about 1% of the total bike+rider weight and there is some evidence that the much quoted “fact” about rotating weight being more important than static weight may be a myth. But still, I’m surprised that the heavier bike was faster uphill.

But once you start climbing then you are mainly working to overcome gravity.

It’s a factor but I’m not sure I’d agree with ‘mainly’. I guess the experience tends to suggest otherwise, and friction and air resistance are still the main enemies.

Or perhaps the 29er rolling effect benefit becomes more advantageous as the gradient increases.

I don’t know if I’m honest.

Air resistance is negligible on a MTB when climbing (unless there’s a headwind). Rolling resistance and pedalling efficiency matter far more than bike weight but weight is both easy to measure and easy to feel so that’s what everyone obsesses about. And of course in competition, with such close margins between places, fractional gains from weight savings can be the difference between world champion and first loser.

I don’t know if I’m honest.

+1

And i don’t care, the bike I have now works better than the last one and the next will be better still. I’ve found what I like, so bollox to the rest of you.

Fireroads are an even enough gradient and surface to maintain a steady speed where acceleration and steering a wheel of greater mass is less of a disadvantage than when negotiating the variable gradient and surface of twisty singletrack. Consider a skateboard wheel versus a tractor wheel. One is easy to accelerate but readily interrupted by even a slightly uneven surface due to a tiny diameter. The other takes some moving from rest but thereafter rolls over anything as the huge diameter allows a very shallow attack angle over obstacles and the greater mass keeps the momentum going. The contrast between 26″ and 29″ wheels is less marked but the principle remains.

What ever you do, you need to measure the riders power output accurately (strain/speed gauged cranks etc)

Just like Singlespeeds vs gears, people tend to find they go quicker on an SS, this is because i think, if you have a lower gear you are tempted to change down into it, whereas with SS you just HAVE to MTFU!

So, we need a suitable course for 26/29 and enough runs to correlate average(or total) rider power vs speed