http://singletrackworld.com/forum/tags/no-ideological en-US Thu, 23 May 2013 06:26:34 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 q http://singletrackworld.com/forum/search.php http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-the-tube-drivers-pay-deal/page/10#post-3093783 Mon, 24 Oct 2011 22:38:41 +0000 Elfinsafety 3093783@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHwlT-ezjuc[/video] </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-the-tube-drivers-pay-deal/page/10#post-3093778 Mon, 24 Oct 2011 22:36:34 +0000 mudshark 3093778@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>London Underground (LU) plans to axe more than 1,500 jobs and close all but 30 ticket offices, the Rail, Maritime and Transport union has claimed.</p> <p>It quotes a strategy document, leaked to BBC London, which includes proposals to run driverless trains and replace drivers with "train attendants".</p> <p><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15422882" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15422882</a> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-the-tube-drivers-pay-deal/page/10#post-3029825 Wed, 05 Oct 2011 17:11:14 +0000 teamhurtmore 3029825@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Ransos - thanks for pointing that document out - good for my son's economics revision. I don't want to go over old ground but we are not debating the same thing. Surely P50 is ignoring the impact of benefits - hence the difference between the income and expenditure data. The tax system really cant be understood in isolation of the impact of benefits which make up up to 40% of total income for the poorest households.</p> <p>But it is really worth looking at the data, whatever one's point of view because it shows what a mess the tax system really is and just how confusing it is.</p> <p>We are often led to believe that direct taxation is progressive and indirect tax is regressive, but the data in the impact of the council tax is very interesting. I guess the saddest thing in this is to look at the impact of expenditure in tobacco versus the national average. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-the-tube-drivers-pay-deal/page/10#post-3029461 Wed, 05 Oct 2011 15:53:07 +0000 grum 3029461@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>Maybe - but that's surely down to a lack of poverty at the bottom end rather than a limit on earnings at the top. Are you suggesting that my criteria isn't just as good if not a better one?</blockquote></p> <p>No, it's because more equal societies are more socially cohesive, and this benefits everyone in myriad ways. It's not just about absolute poverty/wealth. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-the-tube-drivers-pay-deal/page/10#post-3029221 Wed, 05 Oct 2011 15:04:09 +0000 ransos 3029221@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>This totally ignores the state handouts available to the poor, but not the rich. </blockquote></p> <p>No it doesn't. Go and read the ONS statistics - they take account of benefits. Guess what? The poor still pay a higher percentage in tax than the rich.<br /> <a href="http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/household-income/the-effects-of-taxes-and-benefits-on-household-income/2009-2010/the-effects-of-taxes-and-benefits-on-household-income-2009-10.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/household-income/the-effects-of-taxes-and-benefits-on-household-income/2009-2010/the-effects-of-taxes-and-benefits-on-household-income-2009-10.pdf</a></p> <p>Page 50. The bottom quintile pays a higher percentage in total tax of gross and disposable income, than any of the other 4 quintiles. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-the-tube-drivers-pay-deal/page/10#post-3027154 Wed, 05 Oct 2011 00:05:34 +0000 aracer 3027154@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>It's really not, there's a lot of evidence which shows that societies with a narrower gap between rich and poor are generally happier and healthier places.</blockquote><br /> Maybe - but that's surely down to a lack of poverty at the bottom end rather than a limit on earnings at the top. Are you suggesting that my criteria isn't just as good if not a better one?</p> <p>Half a beast. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-the-tube-drivers-pay-deal/page/10#post-3027141 Tue, 04 Oct 2011 23:59:31 +0000 grum 3027141@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>but what top earners earn is somewhat irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.</blockquote></p> <p>It's really not, there's a lot of evidence which shows that societies with a narrower gap between rich and poor are generally happier and healthier places. Strangely these benefits apply to the rich as well as the poor in these societies. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-the-tube-drivers-pay-deal/page/10#post-3027129 Tue, 04 Oct 2011 23:53:55 +0000 aracer 3027129@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>Society would be a better place if the gap between top and bottom earners was a lot, lot narrower. This is obvious.</blockquote><br /> Actually it's not at all obvious. It's obvious that society would be a better place if the gap between <strike>tube drivers</strike> median earners and bottom earners was a lot, lot narrower, but what top earners earn is somewhat irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-the-tube-drivers-pay-deal/page/10#post-3027123 Tue, 04 Oct 2011 23:50:59 +0000 aracer 3027123@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that the World would be a far better place if <strike>this mayn was</strike> tube drivers were a lot poorer</blockquote><br /> FTFY (in another futile attempt to bring this thread back on topic) </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-the-tube-drivers-pay-deal/page/10#post-3027097 Tue, 04 Oct 2011 23:34:06 +0000 Elfinsafety 3027097@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>though to be honest I think the latter might be a little unfair on elf</blockquote></p> <p> <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_lol.gif" title=":lol:" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-the-tube-drivers-pay-deal/page/10#post-3027096 Tue, 04 Oct 2011 23:33:40 +0000 Junkyard 3027096@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>yes if i pay 20 % of my income and you pay 20% of your income it is obvious one has paid more than the other- if we just ignore the percentage part of the percentage tax <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_eek.gif" title="8O" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> <p>All you are saying is that if we pay the same percentage we can also pay different totals which is true. It is not true to say one pays more if we look at percentages obviously as it is a percentage system. Looking at percentages in a percentage tax system makes a bit more sense as their burden is not greater. I would burden them even more than you would[ %] but we both agree they should pay more.<br /> <blockquote>how is that unfair?</blockquote><br /> which bit? the amount they pay or the bit about them having ten times more money?</p> <p> <blockquote>I guess if most people think rape is ok, it's fine right </blockquote><br /> Yes that is what i am saying good precise. Thanks <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_rolleyes.gif" title=":roll:" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> <br /> <blockquote>What every argumentdiscussion about tax boils down to is that everyone thinks that people richer than them should pay more tax.</blockquote>well even zulu's and your choice leads to that so the discussion is really about how much more they should pay not if. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-the-tube-drivers-pay-deal/page/10#post-3027093 Tue, 04 Oct 2011 23:33:07 +0000 Elfinsafety 3027093@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>I disagree with everything you say </blockquote></p> <p>It's ok. I respect your right to be wrong.</p> <p>X </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-the-tube-drivers-pay-deal/page/10#post-3027090 Tue, 04 Oct 2011 23:32:27 +0000 randomjeremy 3027090@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>I'm glad you agree ernie_lynch</p> <p>night girls </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-the-tube-drivers-pay-deal/page/10#post-3027089 Tue, 04 Oct 2011 23:31:41 +0000 ernie_lynch 3027089@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>I guess if most people think rape is ok, it's fine right </blockquote></p> <p>Arguing in favour of progressive taxation is compared to arguing in favour of rape. </p> <p>Priceless. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-the-tube-drivers-pay-deal/page/10#post-3027088 Tue, 04 Oct 2011 23:31:37 +0000 aracer 3027088@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that the World would be a far better place if this mayn was <strike>a lot poorer</strike> dead/beaten around the face with a dead fish/forced to spend an evening with elf:</blockquote><br /> FTFY (though to be honest I think the latter might be a little unfair on elf) </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-the-tube-drivers-pay-deal/page/10#post-3027085 Tue, 04 Oct 2011 23:30:49 +0000 randomjeremy 3027085@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p> <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_rolleyes.gif" title=":roll:" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-the-tube-drivers-pay-deal/page/10#post-3027083 Tue, 04 Oct 2011 23:30:04 +0000 grum 3027083@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>You disagree with this bit? </p> <p><blockquote>Society would be a better place if the gap between top and bottom earners was a lot, lot narrower. This is obvious.<br /> </blockquote></p> <p>Then you're a fool. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-the-tube-drivers-pay-deal/page/10#post-3027075 Tue, 04 Oct 2011 23:26:38 +0000 randomjeremy 3027075@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>I disagree with everything you say *shrug* </p> <p>*kiss* </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-the-tube-drivers-pay-deal/page/10#post-3027066 Tue, 04 Oct 2011 23:23:35 +0000 Elfinsafety 3027066@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>No, maybe people just think everyone should pay a proportionate amount of tax. If you earn far more than you actually, need, you're effectively taking it away from some other poor bugger, so maybe you should pay loads more tax to make up for the shortfall suffered by the poor bugger.</p> <p>Society would be a better place if the gap between top and bottom earners was a lot, lot narrower. This is obvious.</p> <p>I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that the World would be a far better place if this mayn was a lot poorer:</p> <p><img src="http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/11_01/winnerDM_468x700.jpg"> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-the-tube-drivers-pay-deal/page/10#post-3027052 Tue, 04 Oct 2011 23:15:51 +0000 randomjeremy 3027052@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote> most people think it is fairer that the burden should also be based on ability to pay, even if you disagree.</blockquote></p> <p>That's only because most people aren't rich. I guess if most people think rape is ok, it's fine right <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_rolleyes.gif" title=":roll:" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> <p>What every <strike>argument</strike>discussion about tax boils down to is that everyone thinks that people richer than them should pay more tax. /thread </p>