mark en-US Wed, 30 May 2012 01:02:12 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 q http://singletrackworld.com/forum/search.php http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aurevoir-sarkozy/page/4#post-3770960 Tue, 08 May 2012 10:38:33 +0000 konabunny 3770960@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>However, when viewed in the context of post-apartheid South Africa, socialism as social engineering is the best way forward. You don't need to drive through too many roadworks in South Africa to realise:</p> <p>a) They probably don't need doing in the first place</p> <p>and</p> <p>b) There are a lot of people employed to wave flags at traffic and generally mooch about.</p> <p>To criticise this is to miss the point, though. This is how the ANC is trying to complete a slow-motion Robin Hood wealth redistribution. They could not afford to simply tax the hell out of the whites because they would then probably just have taken their money and cleared out. Instead, a gradual process of economic and social reallignment is being carried out.</blockquote></p> <p>I am impressed at how much pish you've managed to compress into so few words. </p> <p>The wealth redistribution the ANC has achieved is not from rich white to poor black, but from corporations to the new elite (by way of BEEs) and from poor black to the new elite (by way of corruption and fraud). A huge chunk of whites (and educated or otherwise mobile South Africans of other races, for that matter) have cleared out and many of those who remain have transferred money overseas. The gradual process of economic and social realignment that takes place when unnecessary and overstaffed projects take place is one of sclerosis and inefficiency. The rand that is pissed away on a boondoggle to employ the mayor/governor/president's mate's road construction company is a rand that is spent highly inefficiently and is a rand that is not spent on e.g. healthcare. It is a rand stolen from the poor and given to the rich. Patronage is highly inefficient. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aurevoir-sarkozy/page/4#post-3769573 Mon, 07 May 2012 20:22:28 +0000 dannyh 3769573@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Another adjunct, this time for those who are bemoaning the 'behaviour' of the 'markets' towards the result of the French election. Unfortunately, markets are supposed to be have rationally, but you have to adjust your concept of 'rationality' to understand that it's purpose (and therefore its rational behaviour) is to enhance or protect or mitigate against loss of the general wealth - usually in the short-term.</p> <p>You really cannot shed any tears for the French comitting an act of national petulance and losing some of their 'value'. Just look at what has happened to the value of the rand since the end of apartheid. Five rand to the pound in 1995, as low as 14 a little over ten years later. Any sane person would argue that ending apartheid and supporting the resulting state was good, and rational from a human point of view. The markets have no scruples - they are just reactive for their own ends. Unfortuantely, there are actually flesh and blood people behind these markets - and there is the moral issue.</p> <p>This also brings me (not entirely accidentally) onto an example where socialism is a good thing. Socialism in a developed, industrialised nation like France is just self-indulgence. However, when viewed in the context of post-apartheid South Africa, socialism as social engineering is the best way forward. You don't need to drive through too many roadworks in South Africa to realise:</p> <p>a) They probably don't need doing in the first place</p> <p>and</p> <p>b) There are a lot of people employed to wave flags at traffic and generally mooch about.</p> <p>To criticise this is to miss the point, though. This is how the ANC is trying to complete a slow-motion Robin Hood wealth redistribution. They could not afford to simply tax the hell out of the whites because they would then probably just have taken their money and cleared out. Instead, a gradual process of economic and social reallignment is being carried out. You also have to remember that the ANC had a national (and at times more powerful) rival in Sobukwe's Pan Africanist Congress (PAC), which advocated 'driving the white man into the sea'. Black and coloured South Africans ultimately rejected this (obviously very tempting) view in favour of a compratively peaceful solution. They also succeeding in dragging Inkatha kicking and screaming into a tacit understanding (despite the double-dealings of De Klerk and his cronies).</p> <p>To decry socialism entirely is to be too dogmatic - but I do not believe it has any place in countries where 99.99% of the population have a roof over their head, a car, a TV and running water. It is decadence pure and simple when you consider the living conditions elsewhere in the world for people who work honestly and dilligently.</p> <p>P.S. to further balance things out, I also think Britain's attitued to apartheid was pretty shabby, from covert non-interest (Wilson) to overt non-interest (Thatcher). Just goes to show - everyone is in the pockets of the markets to some extent! </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aurevoir-sarkozy/page/4#post-3768690 Mon, 07 May 2012 17:12:48 +0000 mogrim 3768690@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>So where does a dark green like myself stand then?</blockquote></p> <p>On a four axis spectrum, "authoritarian left". </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aurevoir-sarkozy/page/4#post-3768610 Mon, 07 May 2012 16:43:33 +0000 jota180 3768610@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>So where does a dark green like myself stand then?</blockquote></p> <p>With your head in the clouds? </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aurevoir-sarkozy/page/4#post-3768603 Mon, 07 May 2012 16:41:29 +0000 El-bent 3768603@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>So where does a dark green like myself stand then?</blockquote></p> <p>North of the border in la la land. <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_wink.gif" title=":wink:" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aurevoir-sarkozy/page/4#post-3768598 Mon, 07 May 2012 16:40:08 +0000 deadlydarcy 3768598@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>socialism is almost a swear word in the States </blockquote></p> <p>That's a good thing though, no? </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aurevoir-sarkozy/page/4#post-3768589 Mon, 07 May 2012 16:37:23 +0000 TandemJeremy 3768589@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>So where does a dark green like myself stand then?<br /> .<br /> .<br /> .<br /> .<br /> .<br /> .<br /> .<br /> .<br /> .<br /> Centre left - pale greens can be of the right tho and often are </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aurevoir-sarkozy/page/4#post-3768572 Mon, 07 May 2012 16:34:29 +0000 deadlydarcy 3768572@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>I rate this comment an unprecedented 3 ZOMGs.</blockquote></p> <p> <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_eek.gif" title="8O" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> <p>Jeebus, I had completely missed it. Thankfully. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aurevoir-sarkozy/page/4#post-3768552 Mon, 07 May 2012 16:29:42 +0000 mogrim 3768552@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>That there is the problem, right-wing is often associated with conservative politics, hence the reluctance to accept the label.<br /> In contrast, left-wing is often associated with socialist politics, hence the acceptance of the label.</blockquote></p> <p>Depends on the country, of course - socialism is almost a swear word in the States <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_smile.gif" title=":)" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> <p>And this is why I personally think the labelling is inadequate - both Stalin and Michael Foot were left-wing, for example, yet their politics were hardly identical. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aurevoir-sarkozy/page/4#post-3768361 Mon, 07 May 2012 15:31:09 +0000 Northwind 3768361@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>Zulu-Eleven - Member </p> <p>I take it you're cheering the success of socialists then Darcy? I mean, all socialism is good isn't it, even the National type... </blockquote></p> <p>I rate this comment an unprecedented 3 ZOMGs. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aurevoir-sarkozy/page/4#post-3768342 Mon, 07 May 2012 15:24:54 +0000 kaesae 3768342@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Aaw arguing in a friendly way, isn't that cute! </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aurevoir-sarkozy/page/4#post-3768338 Mon, 07 May 2012 15:23:53 +0000 ernie_lynch 3768338@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>Are you swapping you mate's Edinburgh defence for the even more irritating version, the G Galloway version.</blockquote></p> <p>More irritating version ? As irritating as G Galloway ?</p> <p>Aw, shucks.......thanks <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_cool.gif" title="8)" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aurevoir-sarkozy/page/4#post-3768321 Mon, 07 May 2012 15:19:37 +0000 ernie_lynch 3768321@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>I'm quite happy to be considered right-wing, what I don't like about the label is the way it's often associated with conservative (small c) politics</blockquote></p> <p>That there is the problem, right-wing is often associated with conservative politics, hence the reluctance to accept the label.</p> <p>In contrast, left-wing is often associated with socialist politics, hence the acceptance of the label. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aurevoir-sarkozy/page/4#post-3768305 Mon, 07 May 2012 15:15:13 +0000 teamhurtmore 3768305@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Ernie, it is unlike you not to read carefully. Are you swapping you mate's Edinburgh defence for the even more irritating version, the G Galloway version. I have been clear several times, but let me try again. It's not the terms RW and LW that I ( or some waffling intellectual - classy that BTW!) are commenting on, it the sloppy use of these terms to phrase the debates of what is going on in European politics at the moment. But if it really is too challenging for you to understand this and if you would rather do a GG and constantly rephrased things to suit, then so be it. As I said, "never..... <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_wink.gif" title=":wink:" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> ....</p> <p>P.s plenty of right wingers are very happy with that definition including I imagine the Tory backbenchers who have their knickers in a twist at the moment. So they are probably not the ones objecting to others stereotyping them incorrectly! </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aurevoir-sarkozy/page/4#post-3768298 Mon, 07 May 2012 15:13:43 +0000 mogrim 3768298@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Economically I'm quite happy to be considered right-wing, what I don't like about the label is the way it's often associated with conservative (small c) politics, in particular here in Spain that means the reactionary, Catholic, post-Franco wing of the ruling party. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aurevoir-sarkozy/page/4#post-3768269 Mon, 07 May 2012 15:05:05 +0000 wrecker 3768269@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>TandemJeremy - Member<br /> Whjy do some of those who commonly espouse right wing ideas deny being right wing? there are a few on here.<br /> POSTED 14 HOURS AGO #<br /> </blockquote><br /> I may be to the right of you, that does not mean I am right wing regardless of what you think.<br /> Proper right wingers would find some of my views left wing. Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to stereotype. Not all of us fall neatly into a label like you obviously do. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aurevoir-sarkozy/page/4#post-3768263 Mon, 07 May 2012 15:00:20 +0000 TandemJeremy 3768263@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>In the meantime I will maintain the claim that whilst right-wingers are more than happy to label left-wingers as left-wing, they are both embarrassed and reluctant to call themselves right-wing.</p> <p>Which is hardly surprising really......who in their right mind would be happy to call themselves right-wing. </blockquote></p> <p>Agreed </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aurevoir-sarkozy/page/4#post-3768251 Mon, 07 May 2012 14:55:23 +0000 ernie_lynch 3768251@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>don't let fact get in the way of a good argument</blockquote></p> <p>And yet it is you who is 'not letting fact get in the way of your argument'.</p> <p>The fact remains that the terms left-wing and right-wing are used extensively by both the media and politicians, despite your claim that it is "tired, outdated and sloppy". Even your own newspaper, who's opinions you apparently value so much, uses the terms. That is the fact. </p> <p><blockquote>His article clearly defines Hollande as being on the left, before returning to the actual point ie, whether defining the debate in these terms adds value.</blockquote></p> <p>So you've found a waffling intellectual who <em>clearly</em> uses the term, and then questions himself whether he should have. Well I hardly feel that lays the basis for not using the term. Still, you could write a letter to the FT pointing out that iyo the terms left-wing and right-wing are "tired, outdated and sloppy", and ask them to please stop using them.</p> <p>In the meantime I will maintain the claim that whilst right-wingers are more than happy to label left-wingers as left-wing, they are both embarrassed and reluctant to call themselves right-wing.</p> <p>Which is hardly surprising really......who in their right mind would be happy to call themselves right-wing. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aurevoir-sarkozy/page/4#post-3767988 Mon, 07 May 2012 13:15:50 +0000 teamhurtmore 3767988@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Ernie, his actual article is much more informative than Wiki bios but don't let that get in the way. You might even get his point, rather than superimposing yours on him.</p> <p>His article clearly defines Hollande as being on the left, before returning to the actual point ie, whether defining the debate in these terms adds value. But don't let fact get in the way of a good argument, tis not the STW way. <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_wink.gif" title=":wink:" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/aurevoir-sarkozy/page/4#post-3767822 Mon, 07 May 2012 12:25:03 +0000 El-bent 3767822@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>So...Will France be a better place in 2years time? </blockquote></p> <p>Not if those in the arena of finance can help it. How dare those Frenchies take a democratic decision! Don't they know we control the world? </p> <p><blockquote>How exactly does it work and how have we come to a be in a situation where the banking sector has so much influence and as such control over our lives, especially when that influence is detrimental to our quality of life.</p> <p>So how does it work and isn't it the equivalent of coercion / blackmail for countries to only vote in certain parties? </blockquote></p> <p>You may not claim to know much Kaesae, but you've got this pretty much spot on. The sooner we rid ourselves of the current form of capitalism, it's worshipers and its "investors", the better we will be. </p>